3.3TT Misfires / Turbo Failure

[Dick Dastardly]

Feel free to discuss his mods as it relates to the failure.

The deleted posts were an immature argument about why people mod cars that weren’t going to help understand the current situation.

Apologies, I did not see the deleted posts so misunderstood your comment in isolation. Is there an emoji for backpedaling!

 

[Terra]

Wow.... .that's a pay to play failure in my eyes. ...

 

[DaJackson]

Apologies, I did not see the deleted posts so misunderstood your comment in isolation. Is there an emoji for backpedaling!

No worries.

 

[Stinger Lover]

I'm sorry to hear this happened. I hope everything works out.

Thanks for sharing with mods and the like. I'm now a bit concerned since I just ordered the JB4. I know this may not be the cause but it still may have contributed to the failure.

 

[Volvowith18psi]

Thanks for being the guinea pig brother and Im sorry this happened.

Its an interesting failure and Ill be watching this to see if the root cause gets determined. IMO only, the metal bits are the weird part. Why would the turbo have had a destructive failure. I would think the turbo would spin the bearings from an overboost, but what do I know.

 

[ballistic]

I'm sorry to hear this happened. I hope everything works out.

Thanks for sharing with mods and the like. I'm now a bit concerned since I just ordered the JB4. I know this may not be the cause but it still may have contributed to the failure.

you should be fine. the o.p. is using 100 octane race gas on the highest map. it was more risky.

 

[KLR STINGER]

When you say metal in the intake..do you mean the intake to the turbo compressor, or do you mean intake manifold? If its on the inlet to the compressor only thing that could have happened was ingesting foreign object or the compressor wheel nut came loose and destroyed the wheel. If the BOVs were not calibrated correctly, you could have stalled the wheel from surge, which puts stresses on the wheel and nut and can cause it to back out. Tuning would have had not impact on a mechanical failure like this. Most likely a manufacturing defect.

 

[bal]

Thank you all for your replies. I did not intend to start an argument regarding the morality of taking the vehicle back to the dealer stock, I simply prefer to have it analyzed without bias and worry that I will be stuck with a bill for what's very likely a manufacturing defect.

If you have been modding cars for a while, you may have experienced certain dealership service centers (multiple brands, not singling anyone out) that are quick to blame unrelated issues on mods and try to stick you with a bill without proper or honest analysis.

Example: I once had a service center tell me a custom exhaust and intake somehow caused a wheel bearing to fail because the car was "not meant to handle that much torque". We're talking maybe an additional 25-30 torque over stock, on a muscle car with 3500 miles. It was laughable and I took the car to another dealership who fixed it under warranty no questions asked.

Terry @ BMS said this was the first failure he'd heard of on this platform and there are several other people with these same mods not having any issues with JB4 map5 w/Methanol or 100 Octane. All modifications, with the exception of exhaust/intake, were done after the first oil change and break in period.

TL;DR Thank you all for your replies, I will update everyone once I know more.

 

[bal]

When you say metal in the intake..do you mean the intake to the turbo compressor, or do you mean intake manifold? If its on the inlet to the compressor only thing that could have happened was ingesting foreign object or the compressor wheel nut came loose and destroyed the wheel. If the BOVs were not calibrated correctly, you could have stalled the wheel from surge, which puts stresses on the wheel and nut and can cause it to back out. Tuning would have had not impact on a mechanical failure like this. Most likely a manufacturing defect.

Air Intake to the turbo, not the manifold. No part of the intake manifold or plugs had oil on them. The 3 metal shavings are about 1/4 inch long and there is also a tiny nut / bolt that was completely sheared off from somewhere (maybe the one you speak of). There was also oil inside the bottom of the air intake pipe itself along with the metal.

 

[Socalstinga]

+7psi of boost even w/ the 100 octane doesn’t sound like enough to cause this kind of failure unless the turbo itself could not handle it. Which would appear to be a turbo issue, if the additional boost was too much. Sounds like a part defect of some sort.. I’ve seen vids from Korea pushing this engine and tune harder but what do I know...

Good luck brother... keep the forum updated.

 

[KLR STINGER]

Air Intake to the turbo, not the manifold. No part of the intake manifold or plugs had oil on them. The 3 metal shavings are about 1/4 inch long and there is also a tiny nut / bolt that was completely sheared off from somewhere (maybe the one you speak of). There was also oil inside the bottom of the air intake pipe itself along with the metal.

That's good news. 100% you lost the turbine wheel nut. That caused the wheel to come off the shaft and begin to "self clearance" the wheel and compressor housing giving you the metal shavings and causing the shaft bearing and seal to leak oil from the CHRA into the exhaust. Only takes very little oil directly into the exhaust stream to smoke like crazy. Why we will never know you lost the nut( probably manufacturing defect) but please ensure your BOVs are using the minimal spring pressure to keep them closed, and that they are connected to the factory solenoid, not direct to vacuum source on the IM. Spring pressure should be light enough to barely keep it closed at idle. Under boost the pressure equalizes and you don;t even need the spring in theory.

 

[Skraight]

That's good news. 100% you lost the turbine wheel nut. That caused the wheel to come off the shaft and begin to "self clearance" the wheel and compressor housing giving you the metal shavings and causing the shaft bearing and seal to leak oil from the CHRA into the exhaust. Only takes very little oil directly into the exhaust stream to smoke like crazy. Why we will never know you lost the nut( probably manufacturing defect) but please ensure your BOVs are using the minimal spring pressure to keep them closed, and that they are connected to the factory solenoid, not direct to vacuum source on the IM. Spring pressure should be light enough to barely keep it closed at idle. Under boost the pressure equalizes and you don;t even need the spring in theory.

Had this happen to me before, it was because of my BOV as he mentioned.

 

[KLR STINGER]

A BOVs main job is to prevent compressor surge, or in extreme circumstances stalling. What happens in this situation is the turbo is spinning at 100k+ rpm while under full load. Coming off the throttle slams the tb shut. This surges the pressure in the charge pipe and the air begins to act as a brake on the compressor wheel. Suddenly stopping a wheel spinning 100+k rpm puts huge stresses shaft and has enough torque to loosen the retaining nut. Morale of the story.. Be careful when modifying the BOV. Its not there to make noise, there to save your turbo.

 

[ZyroXZ2]

I'm actually glad the OP is being honest about it all even if it's unwise to do that in a public thread.

Some of us bought this car to mod it because we see the potential. It's not about warranties, it's about the upper limit of what we can do. Having said that, it's still possible the mods led to finding a weak point in the components. And by components, I'm including the aftermarket components, too.

As someone else in the thread said, this brave man is a hero. People finding the upper limits helps to push past them. I mean, we all know we're going to be eyeballing that dude that's rolling around in a 600HP Stinger taking on muscle cars all day long

 

[Adamdan]

A plug could have come apart and went through the exhaust taking out your turbo exaust wheel.

 

[KLR STINGER]

OP said plugs were fine and he found the compressor nut in the intake

 

[bal]

A BOVs main job is to prevent compressor surge, or in extreme circumstances stalling. What happens in this situation is the turbo is spinning at 100k+ rpm while under full load. Coming off the throttle slams the tb shut. This surges the pressure in the charge pipe and the air begins to act as a brake on the compressor wheel. Suddenly stopping a wheel spinning 100+k rpm puts huge stresses shaft and has enough torque to loosen the retaining nut. Morale of the story.. Be careful when modifying the BOV. Its not there to make noise, there to save your turbo.

That is very good info, thank you very much!

The HKS BOV's did not come with a recirculation adapter so I did end up adding that to recirculate back into the intakes, just like the stock intake. From past experiences using these on other cars, if it's meant to recirculate from the factory, it's best to set it up that way (reduces flutter, etc.). In testing on the dyno, the BOV's were functioning correctly at idle and all boost levels (up to 7 psi over stock, so roughly 19psi). When the failure occurred (plumes of white smoke and dripping oil from the exhaust) I was not letting off of the gas but full throttle going from 3rd near peak RPM's into 4th. Sudden loss of power and what looked like a smoke bomb went off out the rear end but never any check engine lights, thumps, noises, or other indications of failure other than loss of power, oil and smoke (oil was literally pouring out of the exhaust pipes/joints). BOV's were on the car for a few hundred miles (with many many dyno runs) and no indication of failure.

Perhaps we need a thread dedicated to BOV calibration for the Stinger in the near future.

 

[KLR STINGER]

Compressor surge can also happen in between shifts, especially in between higher gears as TM intervenes by reducing torque to allow the trans to shift, then the sudden drop in RPM due to the shift reducing airflow, even with the TB fully open. Basically any time the Boost pressure is high, and airflow is impeded or lowered the compressor can and will surge. The BOV or diverter valve needs to be
1. Sized appropriately for the Airflow you are trying to vent
2. Adjusted correctly for venting to occur fast enough, and recover back to boost once surge threshold is overcome.
3. Adjusted to hold peak boost you are targetting
It's kind of a delicate balance. The OEM ones are basically the same as the 2.0t in eleantra, x 2. That's probably enough for stock, but as these cars start to see 18-20 PSI regularly I feel like there is going to be a need to move to a highly adjustable, high flow, fast response style BOV like a 50mm TiAL or Turbosmart raceport.

 

[STINGER]

That is very good info, thank you very much!

The HKS BOV's did not come with a recirculation adapter so I did end up adding that to recirculate back into the intakes, just like the stock intake. From past experiences using these on other cars, if it's meant to recirculate from the factory, it's best to set it up that way (reduces flutter, etc.). In testing on the dyno, the BOV's were functioning correctly at idle and all boost levels (up to 7 psi over stock, so roughly 19psi). When the failure occurred (plumes of white smoke and dripping oil from the exhaust) I was not letting off of the gas but full throttle going from 3rd near peak RPM's into 4th. Sudden loss of power and what looked like a smoke bomb went off out the rear end but never any check engine lights, thumps, noises, or other indications of failure other than loss of power, oil and smoke (oil was literally pouring out of the exhaust pipes/joints). BOV's were on the car for a few hundred miles (with many many dyno runs) and no indication of failure.

Perhaps we need a thread dedicated to BOV calibration for the Stinger in the near future.

Usually recirculating the BOV is required for a car running a MAF, in our case MAP cars do not really require recirculation. But like you I prefer recirculating to keep the noise down.

Question is, is the HKS BOV adjustable?

 

[KLR STINGER]

Correct. In older platforms Air mass was METERED via a MAF sensor. If you vented that air mass without re circulation you could have idle and stumble issues. Modern platforms ECU like the SIM 2K-260 in the 3.3 stinger use CALCULATED Air Mass via TMAP, MAP-IAT, RPM, Cam and Crank PS and known Volumetric Efficiency coefficients to determine fueling strategy.( along with other things)

And yes, the HKS BOV is adjustable. Also there are a lot of knock offs out there that might not respond as quickly as required due to using generic springs. And while its a possible cause of this failure, we should still not discount manufacturing issue. Car had less than 3000 miles on it, and for it to fail that early smells more of a part quality issue than anything to me. I just wanted to make sure people understood that a BOV/DV has a very important function, and not just there to make woooooosh noises! Make sure you and considering the function over the form.