Check this out!!! (ECS control module)

[Cyrus Duong]

I don't think so.
But I may be wrong so I'll ask them.

Awesome thank you. If I'm wrong, then yes we'd probably want to use the advanced tab like you suggest a few posts ago.

 

[MerlintheMad]

From factory it would make sense for our vehicle to adjust the compression/rebound with speed.

I think so, because I'm confident in saying that the suspension got more "secure/planted" the faster I went. A "bounce/float" tendency at legal speed would translate into a virtual bound into the air in back if the suspension didn't adjust to speeds well over 100 mph. The highway I was on (95 in Oregon) has humps along a considerable part of its straight stretch. A "floaty" car would get worse the faster you went: the Stinger took each hump as a single, instantaneous "event", over the top and flat to the road surface again: no "bounce" or "float" whatsoever. Had it been otherwise, I'd never have gone that fast in the first place but backed off long before I got anywhere near 150 mph. So the factory damping and rebound has to firm up with increased speed. That is the base programming that this Mando ECS box is an "additive" for.

Here's a limited illustration of the stretch of highway I'm talking about: the straight overhead satellite image is given side on perspective using computer imaging to fake it; and the wiggles seen here are actually humps in those places.

(But how does a Stinger with no ECS compare? Would it bounce up and down on those humps? And if not, why not?)

 

[xot1]

A "floaty" car would get worse the faster you went: the Stinger took each hump as a single, instantaneous "event", over the top and flat to the road surface again: no "bounce" or "float" whatsoever.

Have you ever driven a german sport car (M,AMG,etc.) at high speed(>130mph)? It is incredibly stable.
If you do so then go back to the Stinger and you will notice the floating/bounce for sure.
Some will say its because its a GT, but when you drive it like a sport car, it needs more stability. Thats why so many people do sways and springs.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Have you ever driven a german sport car (M,AMG,etc.) at high speed(>130mph)? It is incredibly stable.
If you do so then go back to the Stinger and you will notice the floating/bounce for sure.
Some will say its because its a GT, but when you drive it like a sport car, it needs more stability. Thats why so many people do sways and springs.

I only had stock suspension. No I have not driven a German sports car. I'm asking about the non ECS Stinger. Since I put in my Eibach rear bar the already well behaved rear is even better. I have no way of quantifying "incredibly stable", since I remain impressed by how my AWD GT1 remained stable at any speed.

 

[Ty Davis]

I think so, because I'm confident in saying that the suspension got more "secure/planted" the faster I went. A "bounce/float" tendency at legal speed would translate into a virtual bound into the air in back if the suspension didn't adjust to speeds well over 100 mph. The highway I was on (95 in Oregon) has humps along a considerable part of its straight stretch. A "floaty" car would get worse the faster you went: the Stinger took each hump as a single, instantaneous "event", over the top and flat to the road surface again: no "bounce" or "float" whatsoever. Had it been otherwise, I'd never have gone that fast in the first place but backed off long before I got anywhere near 150 mph. So the factory damping and rebound has to firm up with increased speed. That is the base programming that this Mando ECS box is an "additive" for.

Here's a limited illustration of the stretch of highway I'm talking about: the straight overhead satellite image is given side on perspective using computer imaging to fake it; and the wiggles seen here are actually humps in those places.
View attachment 32406
(But how does a Stinger with no ECS compare? Would it bounce up and down on those humps? And if not, why not?)

I have data logged the Stock Stinger ECS values while traveling.
You are absolutely correct. The Shocks do get firmer with increased speed.
Additionally, they stiffen when you corner, accelerate, and brake too.
There is also a pronounced increase in stiffness as the car nears 0 to 5mph.
This helps reduce squat on take off and the effects of dive when stopping.

However, a car does not need ECS to ride great at all times. A good passive setup can surely best a poorly tuned Adaptive setup.
I have not driven the GT with regular shocks, but I have seen evidence that it has a “sportier” ride than the ECS models, as for controlling ride motions.

That being said, the ECS does have programming that seeks to smooth out roads like the one you posted.
As best as I can tell, the ECS really excels at reducing body roll, squat and dive.
But, at least on the RWD GT1/2, it is designed to allow larger (and numerous) vertical body motions over less than smooth terrain. This is the old school Cadillac tuning that many equate with “luxury”.

Watching videos of various Stingers in motion, the lack of vertical body control is as easily seen as it is felt while driving. The AWD models do appear to have better vertical body control (less bounce) than The RWD, but also a touch worse roll control (more leaning in corners).

Back to your question... I think the Base GT suspension would do just as well as the ECS on that road you posted.
Notice that Kia submitted a Base GT for the AMCI testing against the BMW 640i Grand Coupe and Porsche Panamera. That just might be the “sportiest” Stinger. Car and Driver also remarked that the rear of the passive suspension had a bit less float than that of the adaptive model, in their opinion.

That road you posted looks quite fun and I’d imagine that it was a blast to ride on. ECS can really get into its groove on a road like that and produce quite a nice feel. Still, at least on RWD Ecs models, the Stinger would fail to suspend the body as firmly or flatly as its competitors. Kias own Optima has more refined ride motions and that’s with a regular family car suspension.

 

[Ty Davis]

Have you ever driven a german sport car (M,AMG,etc.) at high speed(>130mph)? It is incredibly stable.
If you do so then go back to the Stinger and you will notice the floating/bounce for sure.
Some will say its because its a GT, but when you drive it like a sport car, it needs more stability. Thats why so many people do sways and springs.

I know what you are talking about. In fact, few of the many cars I’ve driven recently have looser body control than the Stinger with ECS. The body simply moves up and down more than other cars. Making matters worse, is that the front and rear don’t bounce together (flat/level body). They both oscillate on their own and often times takes more than one cycle dissipate the energy of the bump or irregularity.

The Mando makes all of this better, but I still find that vertical body control is severely lacking.
I did test drive a G70 3.3 with regular suspension and found it to be firmer and better composed than the ECS Stinger at most times, but that car too had an excessive (but less than Stinger) amount of bounce over larger undulations or sharp elevation changes.

The KWv3 (when mine were working) did an excellent job of keeping the body flat, level, and tight above the road. The Mando isn’t a replacement for proper shocks or Coilovers, but it is much better than the stock ECS.

 

[xot1]

Awesome thank you. If I'm wrong, then yes we'd probably want to use the advanced tab like you suggest a few posts ago.

I got the answer from the Mando ECS10 developper.

The Mando ECS10 replaces the stock ECS values and is NOT an addition nor a substraction to the stock values.

So that implies:
1. Changing from Eco/Comfort/Sport while having the module active has absolutely no effect on the suspension
2. Setting fixed stiffness values (not changing with speed) on the module will apply these exact fixed values for the suspension, and not increase or decrease values from a variable stock profile (= doesn't work like a piggyback)

 

[xot1]

Making matters worse, is that the front and rear don’t bounce together (flat/level body). They both oscillate on their own and often times takes more than one cycle dissipate the energy of the bump or irregularity.

Typical problem when a suspension is not well adjusted.

I did test drive a G70 3.3 with regular suspension and found it to be firmer and better composed than the ECS Stinger at most times, but that car too had an excessive (but less than Stinger) amount of bounce over larger undulations or sharp elevation changes.

It has a shorter wheel base so it may react differently to the same bumps.

 

[Waynerm002]

For me, after driving a loaded G70, it did remind me of a 2008 or 2009 BMW 335 with M-Sport package. It was a nice, buttoned down ride. The car was nimble through traffic and corners and such a joy to drive. I opted for the 535 M-Sport though, for the extra space. I'm getting closer with how I want the car to ride by tuning for a different feel at different speeds. The quest continues.

 

[Cyrus Duong]

The Mando ECS10 replaces the stock ECS values and is NOT an addition nor a substraction to the stock values.

So that implies:
1. Changing from Eco/Comfort/Sport while having the module active has absolutely no effect on the suspension
2. Setting fixed stiffness values (not changing with speed) on the module will apply these exact fixed values for the suspension, and not increase or decrease values from a variable stock profile (= doesn't work like a piggyback)

Good to know. Thank you for looking into that. Glad there's some good conversation going on in here. Gives me a good idea what and how I'll test finding some my own settings.

Wonder if Basic tuning has an adaptive curve built in even though it has/shows one value?

 

[xot1]

Wonder if Basic tuning has an adaptive curve built in even though it has/shows one value?

This is something I also wonder about. It may have an adaptive curve too.

 

[itguy61]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by an adaptive suspension? Different settings applied by the computer under different conditions such as speed, cornering and road condition?

 

[xot1]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by an adaptive suspension? Different settings applied by the computer under different conditions such as speed, cornering and road condition?

Yes

 

[Ty Davis]

For me, after driving a loaded G70, it did remind me of a 2008 or 2009 BMW 335 with M-Sport package. It was a nice, buttoned down ride. The car was nimble through traffic and corners and such a joy to drive. I opted for the 535 M-Sport though, for the extra space. I'm getting closer with how I want the car to ride by tuning for a different feel at different speeds. The quest continues.

I got the answer from the Mando ECS10 developper.

The Mando ECS10 replaces the stock ECS values and is NOT an addition nor a substraction to the stock values.

So that implies:
1. Changing from Eco/Comfort/Sport while having the module active has absolutely no effect on the suspension
2. Setting fixed stiffness values (not changing with speed) on the module will apply these exact fixed values for the suspension, and not increase or decrease values from a variable stock profile (= doesn't work like a piggyback)

Despite what Mando has communicated to you, I do find that it *does not* eliminate or replace the factory ECS programming.
I have tested this and looked at the actual ECS data while driving.
While viewing live data while driving, I can see the exact voltage (firmness/softness) that each shock is operating at.

Through my Gscan2 scantool, I can also set the ECS programming to Euro, Australia, China, Russia, North America, RWD, AWD, G70, K900, Dynamic, 2.0, 3.3, or 2.2VGT. Each of these settings (or combination of settings) controls the shocks via a different program. Without the Mando, each of the settings I just listed have their own feel, ride, and handling characteristics.

Now with the Mando installed, the ECS behavior is stilled changed if I alter/change the vehicle option coding in the factory ECS computer. On the same Mando Setting, The Shocks behavior (and voltage values) are still changed if I recode the ECS to one of those other vehicles programming with my Gscan2.

An example...
Stock suspension @40mph and American RWD Settings might equal 2.56 volts to the front and 2.78 to the rear.
With Mando in those same conditions the reading would be 3.20v front and 3.39v rear.
If I switch to Australian coding/configuration of the factory ECS, the same conditions might net a 4.50v front and 4.60v rear shock reading.
With those same Australian settings and conditions, plus Mando on, I’d get a reading of 4.00v front and 4.80v rear.

These numbers are just made up, because I do not recall the actual figures. But they do show (and you can feel) that the Mando is massaging whatever base program is in effect in the ECS computer at that time.

I can take some screenshots or videos if anyone would like to see the difference themselves or if it would help shine some light on how things are working.

Another thing I have found, is Switching between Comfort and Sport (on the car’s mode selector knob) absolutely do still have an effect when the Mando is installed. Again I can feel it and also observe the actual shocks voltage value change in Sport.

I am not sure if the cars drive mode (Eco/Comfort/Sport) have any effect while using the Apps Custom settings.
If it does, it is subtle and I really can’t feel it. I’ll have to datalog to be sure, but I think here it does not.

One more observation...
The Mando Sport and Comfort settings (and the stock ECS too) manipulate the shocks quite a bit to prevent dive, squat, roll, and to tailor ride quality and vehicle behavior.
The Mando Custom Menu modes, however, don’t allow the ECS to adapt to brake/steering/accelerator input as aggressively as do the Mando Comfort/Sport and Stock Comfort/Sport modes.

This is one of the reasons it is harder to blend a smooth ride AND sharp handling in the Apps Custom mode.
In the Apps Custom mode, the shocks don’t firm up as much when you turn the steering wheel or stab the brakes or gas.
In the stock ECS and in the Mando Predefined Comfort and Sport modes, the shocks get markedly firmer at the slightest touch of steering angle or brake and throttle application.
This all means you have to use stiffer settings in the Mando Custom setting to retain the same amount of roll/dive/squat control that you get outside of the Mando Custom mode. Then, at that point (that you tune it stiffly), you’ll find the ride getting nervous, jittery and harsh because the firmness is run so high at all times.

 

[itguy61]

Makes me wonder is our suspension just adjustable or is it adaptive? No idea if the ECS system in the car is or not. The first part of my trip yesterday featured some Freeway that was grooved and a bit rougher and it felt like the car was riding a but firmer even when I first hit the part of the Freeway. On the way back the freeway is real smooth and it seemed like the suspension was softer from the get go. It would not be beyond me though to be imagining this.

I am going to use this setting a few days, then try sport with comfort on the car, then move the sport on the car and try both modes again. Then start experimenting with custom settings.

For now my favorite setting is comfort, all I have tried so far, but so far so good!

 

[itguy61]

So Ty from what you are seeing it would seem the ECS system in our cars is adaptive, correct? It is changing voltage to the shocks depending on circumstances?

 

[Ty Davis]

So Ty from what you are seeing it would seem the ECS system in our cars is adaptive, correct? It is changing voltage to the shocks depending on circumstances?

Yes, both the Factory and Mando suspensions are adaptive.
In the case of the factory suspension in particular, it is tuned very softly.
Driving in a straight line down the road, the shocks are relatively relaxed.
Any steering, braking, or accelerative input causes them to stiffen up considerably.

There is also detection of rough/damaged roads built into the system. Accordingly, the shocks can firm or soften depending on road condition and body attitude as well. Watching the voltage values, they are always changing as the car adjusts to your inputs and inputs from the road too.

Even though you were on the same freeway coming and going, I think the biggest factor in the difference you felt was the texture of those surfaces. The Stinger RWD with ECS tends to run a touch too much compression damping to completely smooth out road grain and texture. (The Mando works wonderfully here, reducing the compression harshness but adding in more rebound). It takes a fairly smooth road for the Stinger to glide like a true luxury/performance sedan. Throw in a bit of road surface irregularity and things can deteriorate noticeably.

I think Kia did this to impart a sporty demeanor to what really is a super soft suspension.

 

[Cyrus Duong]

Interesting now we've got some other say... Lines up with how it's wired (doesn't have an input/output), just tapping into the line to pull the voltage higher/lower makes sense to my little electrical knowledge.

Still, a great way to dial in more of a customizable feel to our suspension, yeah I wish the app settings were more descriptive/provided more options, but overwhelm the end-user and they could end up doing more harm than good, with incorrect/bad settings.

Yes, both the Factory and Mando suspensions are adaptive.
The Stinger RWD with ECS tends to run a touch too much compression damping to completely smooth out road grain and texture. (The Mando works wonderfully here, reducing the compression harshness but adding in more rebound). It takes a fairly smooth road for the Stinger to glide like a true luxury/performance sedan. Throw in a bit of road surface irregularity and things can deteriorate noticeably.

I think Kia did this to impart a sporty demeanor to what really is a super soft suspension.

Interesting you mention this. It lines up exactly with my experiences with comfort (even sport to an extent) on the Mando unit. No longer do I need a completely newly repaved road to feel like I'm driving in luxury (which honestly if I'm highway cruising, I want).

So the custom advanced gives us 4 sliders to play with and leaves the rest of the work to the factory unit. I haven't played with custom at all so I have no experience there yet.

 

[xot1]

This thread is really getting interesting.
Thanks for sharing Ty Davis!
Seems like the Mando guys didn't want divulgate too many details on their implementation.

 

[MerlintheMad]

… few of the many cars I’ve driven recently have looser body control than the Stinger with ECS. The body simply moves up and down more than other cars. Making matters worse, is that the front and rear don’t bounce together (flat/level body). They both oscillate on their own and often times takes more than one cycle dissipate the energy of the bump or irregularity.

On Hwy OR 95 at speed I felt none of this. The car simply negotiated each "hump" in a single movement; like something pushing up from beneath and letting go: the car rose and dropped without subsequent "cycles" of movement. Again, had the Stinger done what you describe here, I'd have backed off and never pushed it that fast.