Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Angel]

Why sell it and not use them both. If I ever get to a point where I will flash my ecu without a spare I would want the jb4 for logging.

I am actually not mad at this idea .... I would keep this on the back on my mind but honestly once you get the tune there would no use for the JB4 other that datalogging..... Tork could probablyy chip in on this one ....but I don’t see a use for the JB4 after and ecu tune now I could be wrong

 

[Angel]

Angel, are you implying that we have poor customer service? I am not understanding your point. P-tech has a good tune and great customer service. But if you had a great tune and good customer service... does that some how make the tune any less faster?

Customer service has nothing to do with how a tune performs... its simply how you are treated before and after you buy a tune. If that matters more to you than the actual performance of the tune, then I highly recommend that you get a tune from Presertech.

I am not implying you have bad customer service .... that’s what reviews are for and the information is out there on reviews about you on other forums ... people can research and find and asses their own opinions ....and I agree with you customer service has nothing to do with the performance of you tune .... but customer servoce can be the difference between losing/ gaining a customer .....

 

[TorkMe]

I am actually not mad at this idea .... I would keep this on the back on my mind but honestly once you get the tune there would no use for the JB4 other that datalogging..... Tork could probablyy chip in on this one ....but I don’t see a use for the JB4 after and ecu tune now I could be wrong

Why does everyone want to datalog, lol. Yes, you can datalog... pick an option. $15 dongle and your phone, or $4500 and an annual licence for an emulator?

So much talk about datalogging, yet no one ever mentions the power that a true datalogger has to offer. True recording of 200 + PID's in a real time atmosphere, live map trace and all done at .01 collection times of all 200 PID's. Something like 400hz recording rate (faster than most vehicle ECU processors). State of the art, processing, recording and emulation that comes at a cost of $1000's of dollars.

If you want someone who is tuning your car, you want them using equipment like this for data collection. What you get on a phone app or any piggy back will never compare to a professional emulation device.

 

[Angel]

I would love to hear your review of the Presertech tune vs the JB4. That might be an interesting review.

I will if I end up getting the presertech tune I have not decided yet .... this is not a shot at you or anyone else ....there is a reason why maybe 80% percent of the stinger owners here on the forum and outside the forum have a JB4... is because Terry customer service is A+ , Terry offers group buys and discounts which help the community and people save money .... now you have not offered a group buy for nothing yet ..... you joined the sponsor for this forum after a while ...... I mean if you would make group buys especially for your tune I am sure you would draw a lot more customers ...... but by any means I am not telling how to run your business I am just expressing my opinion .... cheers

 

[TorkMe]

I am not implying you have bad customer service .... that’s what reviews are for and the information is out there on reviews about you on other forums ... people can research and find and asses their own opinions ....and I agree with you customer service has nothing to do with the performance of you tune .... but customer servoce can be the difference between losing/ gaining a customer .....

Well, we are here on the forums, on Facebook, on Youtube, on IG. We have 3 different emails, a phone line, and DM and IM people damn near every hour of the day. So, not sure if you have tried or customer service... but its not bad

 

[Angel]

Well, we are here on the forums, on Facebook, on Youtube, on IG. We have 3 different emails, a phone line, and DM and IM people damn near every hour of the day. So, not sure if you have tried or customer service... but its not bad

Hey I will try it .... not saying is bad .....I am sure you guys are super busy

 

[TorkMe]

I will if I end up getting the presertech tune I have not decided yet .... this is not a shot at you or anyone else ....there is a reason why maybe 80% percent of the stinger owners here on the forum and outside the forum have a JB4... is because Terry customer service is A+ , Terry offers group buys and discounts which help the community and people save money .... now you have not offered a group buy for nothing yet ..... you joined the sponsor for this forum after a while ...... I mean if you would make group buys especially for your tune I am sure you would draw a lot more customers ...... but by any means I am not telling how to run your business I am just expressing my opinion .... cheers

If you buy a $40k car, and are looking for deals on parts... personally, you bought the wrong car. I do not see a reason to offer sales, discounts, rebates, or anything like that. We price our parts cheaper than most, offer video tutorials on how to install them (which people use who have even bought our parts, lol), and have the results to back up damn near every part we offer. I simply do not see a reason to offer a discount, when you consider everything we have done to support our products.

But, your opinion is valid.

 

[TorkMe]

Hey I will try it .... not saying is bad .....I am sure you guys are super busy

Always busy, and development of different platforms all the time takes me way from the customers. We have other people to handle those people when they call or email us

 

[Angel]

If you buy a $40k car, and are looking for deals on parts... personally, you bought the wrong car. I do not see a reason to offer sales, discounts, rebates, or anything like that. We price our parts cheaper than most, offer video tutorials on how to install them (which people use who have even bought our parts, lol), and have the results to back up damn near every part we offer. I simply do not see a reason to offer a discount, when you consider everything we have done to support our products.

But, your opinion is valid.

I personally think that everyone loves getting deals .... I don’t think it matters 20k, 40k, or a 100k car .... saving money is saving money lol ....I own a Lexus isf and a Lexus is300 with 2jz gte swap .... the reason I own those cars and there all paid off and own a very nice house at age of 28 years old is because I save money and spend my money wisely ..... not complaining I get it you set the price you want and people can buy it or not buy it but I am just saying from a bussiness perspective you would atttract a lot more customers who otherwise would not by providing deals and offers ....

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Well, we are here on the forums, on Facebook, on Youtube, on IG. We have 3 different emails, a phone line, and DM and IM people damn near every hour of the day. So, not sure if you have tried or customer service... but its not bad

I can attest to this. I'm not a tork customer (yet... if they would nail down the flashing back to stock at home I would the next day) and he helped me find a spot for my dump valves. <3

 

[TorkMe]

I personally think that everyone loves getting deals .... I don’t think it matters 20k, 40k, or a 100k car .... saving money is saving money lol ....I own a Lexus isf and a Lexus is300 with 2jz gte swap .... the reason I own those cars and there all paid off and own a very nice house at age of 28 years old is because I save money and spend my money wisely ..... not complaining I get it you set the price you want and people can buy it or not buy it but I am just saying from a bussiness perspective you would atttract a lot more customers who otherwise would not by providing deals and offers ....

Maybe I should sell my shop, and use the street for my data collection and Dragy for 1/4 mile results?

Maybe, you should understand what it takes to make a proper tune

Now, combine that with the fact that we bought a car to do development with and not risk damaging a customer car with our development, shows that we are commited to the community.

 

[Angel]

Maybe I should sell my shop, and use the street for my data collection and Dragy for 1/4 mile results?

Maybe, you should understand what it takes to make a proper tune

Now, combine that with the fact that we bought a car to do development with and not risk damaging a customer car with our development, shows that we are commited to the community.

Lol hahahaha please Tork do not use draggy for your results lol ..... again I repeat please not use draggy for your results .... and I respect that you bought a car to Mess around with and develop ..... I don’t disagree with that statement ....that’s a valid opinion .... but please do not use draggy man don’t be that guys .... I have mad respect for you guys actually doing 1/4 runs and posting the slips and videos

 

[TorkMe]

Lol hahahaha please Tork do not use draggy for your results lol ..... again I repeat please not use draggy for your results .... and I respect that you bought a car to Mess around with and develop ..... I don’t disagree with that statement ....that’s a valid opinion .... but please do not use draggy man don’t be that guys .... I have mad respect for you guys actually doing 1/4 runs and posting the slips and videos

We have to use Dragy for a few months, until the track opens. We will hit the track the second that they open.

 

[Angel]

We have to use Dragy for a few months, until the track opens. We will hit the track the second that they open.

That cool I understand you don’t have a choice .... but I agree please use track when possible

 

[TwinSnails]

If you buy a $40k car, and are looking for deals on parts... personally, you bought the wrong car. I do not see a reason to offer sales, discounts, rebates, or anything like that. We price our parts cheaper than most, offer video tutorials on how to install them (which people use who have even bought our parts, lol), and have the results to back up damn near every part we offer. I simply do not see a reason to offer a discount, when you consider everything we have done to support our products.

But, your opinion is valid.

I get some of your rhetoric... some. I bought this car... I pay for this car. Some of this post comes across quite “entitled”. Just from watching your shop, etc. I figured you started small, worked your way to large.

I enjoy companies that support my fellow service men if it’s only 1% difference.

Life is short, I buy what I want... I AM NOT made of money and work extremely hard for it. Stating that I bought a 40k and that someone should just pay an amount and not attempt to catch a deal that saves 1 month of setting money aside is asinine.

Personally I was quite upset to find in addition to looking online at the JB4 after ~420.00 I anticipated the Bluetooth kit (that was 100% my fault for assuming) was closer to 30.00 by the way the site presents “starting at”... was 140.00 and then 30.00 more for fuel wires... amounted to 110.00 more than I had thought.

That’s ~600.00 for a plug-n-play. $850.00 for a ECU is maneagle since your pricing doesn’t incur arguably needed accessories. Once the JB4 handles some additional features it might be worth the 600 with using it as WMI controller.

- My honest initial impression of the JB4, base map1 and no fuel wires, is NOT worth 420.00. Now after fuel wires, it might be worth $450.00, however. And once I can move to map2 and monitor gauges, check and clear codes,etc..... it “might” be worth ~580-$600.

Now with my other experiences with ECU tunes I would EXPECT it to be worth $750-850.00. For ~600.00 I would expect performance I would get from an SCT tuner and street tuning. Something that tunes partial throttle/wot shift points,etc. the JB4 is an amazing piggyback controller, but unless you get ALL the compensation is not worth 420+\- dollars, to me at least.

@TorkMe, I think your product is solid, but a comment insinuating someone shouldn’t be concerned with stretching the dollar further, and the way that came out... may not have lost you a customer but will certainly make one reconsider trusting the guy tuning with a 44k dollar car if we are being specific to what each has paid.

 

[brancky3]

At this point in time we're comparing an ECU tune running 0.02 seconds quicker in the 1/4 mile than a piggyback tune, but the piggyback is trapping 2-3 mph faster. For all intents and purposes (AT THIS CURRENT TIME):

Tork is QUICKER due to their cars having more traction (indicated by lower ETs)

JB4 is FASTER due to their cars having better power / weight (indicated by trap speeds and back half mph gains)

 

[TwinSnails]

Just installed the Bluetooth kit and updated the firmware to the Hex6 file... muuuuch better overall. Car feels a little more responsive on throttle input and ~ 30-40% throttle it feels a lot more responsive. Ran some logs, and Map1 looks fine to me. Ran Map2 and it’s definitely more tq on demand.

I’m not sure which firmware I was on, but updating the JB4 increased its value for sure.

Map1 looked solid to me with a lot of wheel slip (raining), Map 2, some lean AFR’s on initial launch, to my eyes. Going to send em to Terry and let him look at them.

 

[TorkMe]

At this point in time we're comparing an ECU tune running 0.02 seconds quicker in the 1/4 mile than a piggyback tune, but the piggyback is trapping 2-3 mph faster. For all intents and purposes (AT THIS CURRENT TIME):

Tork is QUICKER due to their cars having more traction (indicated by lower ETs)

JB4 is FASTER due to their cars having better power / weight (indicated by trap speeds and back half mph gains)

I agree, but there are concerns that I have.

No one has seen my car and what it can do on methanol. This will be a game changer for the community.

Next, if you look atthe logs getting posted, and compare them, then look at the comments being made by Terry... we have another problem.

Just a few days ago Terry claimed that the ignition drop was to protect the transmission... now, his logs are showing little to no ignition drop. So, did Terry just dismiss the transmission protection in the sake of getting numbers? Or, was Terry making excusses for why our car was faster than his?

Look at ignition chating, its inherently higher at the same RPM points. Look at boost levels, also higher. Look at AFR's... running a bit leaner thank us.

So, if we are just talking about a few 100'ths of a second but there is a clear advantage from one of the cars in the logs posted and the mods on it. I think this is huge.

What I am stating is this. Could you imagine, my mod list, add methanol, more boost, higher octane, more ignition timing, leaner AFR's with a better tire and light weight wheels? As a tuner, I would kill to be running with methanol right now, and soon I will be.

For TonkaBob's car. I bet we have another .2 that we can take off his times. No other mods. 11.7 is what I want to achieve with his car as is, and then we will add additional power adders and see just how far we can go into the 11's with his car.

My personal goal is to run 10.9 with my car on the stock turbos. Then, we move forward with modified stock turbos, and hopefully run a single digit pass!

 

[brancky3]

Look at ignition chating, its inherently higher at the same RPM points. Look at boost levels, also higher. Look at AFR's... running a bit leaner thank us.

Without having the raw data and explaining why this is a bad thing you're spreading misinformation. It's extremely hard to tell actual numbers at any given RPM point without the raw data.

Ignition advance:
Tonkabob's data shows ignition advance ~14 and ending ~15.5 at the shift point.
Terry's data shows ignition advance ~14 and ending ~17 at the shift point.
Unless you tell people WHY 17 degrees of timing is unsafe when boost drops off then it's pointless to isolate this number.

Boost:
Tonkabob's data shows boost at the start of 3rd gear at ~17psi and the start of 4th gear at ~16psi.
Terry's data shows boost at the start of 3rd gear at ~17psi and the start of 4th gear at ~17psi but holding this for most of the gear.
The Tork tune shows boost holding higher until the end of the gear which might be a long-term concern with these smaller turbos but it's too soon to tell.

AFR:
Tonkabob's data shows AFR pretty stable through the whole run at ~12afr.
Terry's data shows AFR slightly leaner in 2nd gear (~12.5) but ~12afr for the rest of the run.

 

[TorkMe]

Without having the raw data and explaining why this is a bad thing you're spreading misinformation. It's extremely hard to tell actual numbers at any given RPM point without the raw data.

Ignition advance:
Tonkabob's data shows ignition advance ~14 and ending ~15.5 at the shift point.
Terry's data shows ignition advance ~14 and ending ~17 at the shift point.
Unless you tell people WHY 17 degrees of timing is unsafe when boost drops off then it's pointless to isolate this number.

Boost:
Tonkabob's data shows boost at the start of 3rd gear at ~17psi and the start of 4th gear at ~16psi.
Terry's data shows boost at the start of 3rd gear at ~17psi and the start of 4th gear at ~17psi but holding this for most of the gear.
The Tork tune shows boost holding higher until the end of the gear which might be a long-term concern with these smaller turbos but it's too soon to tell.

AFR:
Tonkabob's data shows AFR pretty stable through the whole run at ~12afr.
Terry's data shows AFR slightly leaner in 2nd gear (~12.5) but ~12afr for the rest of the run.

Oh boy...

How do I go about explaining why higher ignition is a "bad thing". At this point in tuning, I am not going to refer to it has bad, just that Terry is running more. 3 degrees of timing added 20 WHP for us on the dyno. What would another 3 degrees do? In order to say its bad, something bad would have to happen, and that may take a while.

Raw data, lol. Well, we can share it, but lets be honest, how many are going to even understand it? It would the same as stating, to much ignition timing is bad, without something bad happening. But, when something bad does happen, then what? Do you understand what I am attempting to convey?

It could be a long term concern? Well, since you wish me to point out why more ignition timing is bad, how do we point out that more boost is bad? Only way to tell, is to wait on both topics.

Now, you have isolated "one" of Terrys logs, not the many hehas posted, some of which run into the 13.3 point for AFR's. Others, hitting 20 lbs of boost. And one, climbing to 20 degrees of timing.

I like to hear the questions, but what bothers me the most is how people reading the charts are not asking about the etch-a-sketch timing and air fuel readings. I am sure Terry will say something about data collection speeds, but Tonka already corrected his logs to match that of Terry's and it was very smooth.

My point being, if people are going to disect these logs, we had better start with the basics of how they look initially, then dive into the data that they have in them. With that being said, which log "looks" better (data removed).