Stinger Electronic Stability Control System - Beware!

[Kazz]

Why are we creating a generation of drivers that can't without ESC?

Wait until they don't know how to park a car or how to fill a car with gas - autonomous driving/cars and EV.

 

[Kazz]

ESC keeps the car from oversteering by reducing power and/or apply various brakes. This has the effect of keeping the tail inline and preventing slides. So, yes. ESC can make a car less tailhappy.

Somehow my mind goes back to SUV rollover protection and thought it was more about at-limit rollover protection, not over/under-steer, though it makes sense for it to be included to a point.

the only time ESC is on Point, is when one wheels loses contact to the street for a split second

I've not yet looked into it much, but I've lost acceleration completely when trying to turn a corner from a dead stop [AWD] in our badly potholed and frozen roads (second winter). It's like a rear wheel (that's how I'm picturing it) hits a pothole/ice patch and acceleration stops. Nasty if you've turned in with traffic coming. I want to be able to reproduce it and then turn TC off and see who's really intervening.

 

[Ty Davis]

My past cars with traction control had a light on the dash that would come on whenever you lost traction with TC on. Does the Stinger have that? It was raining the other day and I was alone on a nice stretch so I did a test. 2nd gear, full throttle, TC on, I spun the wheels all the way to redline, nothing ever intervened and no lights came on in the dash. I will say the tail kicked a bit but I never felt like I was out of control.

That’s the other thing... Yes, the Stinger does have the flickering Traction Control light. But here again, in my car it is rarely seen, even during wheelspin or a slide. Then other times I have seen it flicker with wheelspin. Initially, I thought it didn’t flash either, because it doesn’t do it when other cars would. On my other vehicles, the traction control light would flash at the slightest loss of traction. This isn’t the case with the (my) Stinger.

 

[Bigjohnb20]

Are you using the same drive mode in all these situations? I keep seeing all these anecdotes here about tc does this or that but no one is mentioning what drive mode they are in. Pretty sure sport takes things down a notch as fast as intervention. My experience lately driving on snowy roads, and I've had alot lately here in mn, is that in comfort/smart you really have to try to get it to lose grip. At normal moderate speeds/throttle it is very controlled. Tc off I'm able.to get the back out pretty easily. But in sport even with tc "on" it's a whole different beast. Almost spun it all the way around the first time I tried. Part of it I think is that the throttle and transmission are mapped so much more aggressively in sport but it def seemed a lot more lenient to me at least.

Edit: Awd and pretty sure I have seen the tc light flash during intervention in comfort or smart mode

 

[Ty Davis]

Somehow my mind goes back to SUV rollover protection and thought it was more about at-limit rollover protection, not over/under-steer, though it makes sense for it to be included to a point.

You are on the right track... ESC is about stabilizing the chassis during acceleration, braking, and cornering.
This can help prevent rollovers. But that was not it’s original purpose. SUV are popular today, so rollover mitigation is now important and included. But stability control arrived wayyyyyy before SUVs. When Mercedes invented ESC back in 1983, there were no SUVs.

Sedans and luxury cars had ESC long before SUVs got the tech.

However, you are correct that ESC works at the limit. But don’t think of it as at the vehicles limits (ie racecar/racing). ESC works at the tires TRACTION limit. That is totally different. You can reach the traction limit, simply backing out of your driveway (on ice for example). Anytime a wheel is spinning, sliding, locking, or otherwise not matched with actual vehicle speed, the traction limit has been exceeded. Think about ice, snow, gravel, wet leaves... all of these reduce traction. Similarly, cornering, braking, or accelerating to fast can also exceed the traction limit.

So the purpose of ESC is to keep the vehicle inside the limits of available traction (whatever that happens to be for a givin situation/surface). That oversteer and understeer are mitigated is simply a good consequence.
I will add that the BEST ESC systems can ride the traction limit very acutely. Others are too lenient, while so are even to intrusive.

A stability control system that allows 180* or even 360* spins (while in its most restrictive setting, at that) simply needs more development, calibration, and fine tuning. The US government has mandated ESC be standard on every vehicle for quite a while now. The technology really does save lives, reduce accidents, and shrink insurance premiums.

I can picture cars like (at least some of these Stingers) causing the government to go back and revise the ESC mandate with additional rules declaring exactly how many degrees of yaw (rotation/understeer/oversteer) the ESC can allow and still be legal. There are probably already laws/rules to that effect in place. If there are, some of the Stingers are certainly on at the upper limit of that spec.

That being said, I find the Stinger ESC to be very refined, but maybe that’s just because it is so relaxed in its responses. The hardware seems just as good as what was in my BMWs, the calibration is what I find lacking.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ty Davis]

Are you using the same drive mode in all these situations? I keep seeing all these anecdotes here about tc does this or that but no one is mentioning what drive mode they are in. Pretty sure sport takes things down a notch as fast as intervention. My experience lately driving on snowy roads, and I've had alot lately here in mn, is that in comfort/smart you really have to try to get it to lose grip. At normal moderate speeds/throttle it is very controlled. Tc off I'm able.to get the back out pretty easily. But in sport even with tc "on" it's a whole different beast. Almost spun it all the way around the first time I tried. Part of it I think is that the throttle and transmission are mapped so much more aggressively in sport but it def seemed a lot more lenient to me at least.

Edit: Awd and pretty sure I have seen the tc light flash during intervention in comfort or smart mode

Yeah. After reading all of the responses here. I went and found an empty parking lot to try all of the modes.
Even in comfort mode, this car will spin 360* with the traction control and stability control on. I can feel a bit of difference between sport and comfort mode. But like I mentioned in my original post this ESC in its most restrictive mode is looser (less restrictive) than any other car I have driven in their most lenient mode.

I don’t think the variable is drive mode.
It seems that AWD vs RWD is the bigger factor, with the AWD models being more proactive in cutting power and reducing spins. It seems the two models definitely have different calibrations.

 

[Ty Davis]

Now a word couple of words of praise for the Stinger ESC...

I have found that the car is super stable during cornering maneuvers that DON’T involve the throttle.
To date, I have not experienced a loss of traction front or rear, while cornering off the throttle or steady cruise.
The car simply grips and goes where the steering wheel is pointed. Trail braking (braking in/out of a corner) does not induce oversteer at all in this car (so far) no matter how slippery the surface is.

I don’t know if this is the ESC working (as I don’t hear/see/feel it) or if it is just a case of the chassis
having stellar grip and balance. In any event I don’t find that the car slides unless there is an application of power involved. +1 for the Stinger here. My Bimmers would try to oversteer a bit (but was quickly contained by ESC) if you turned too quickly while braking or swerved abruptly.

 

[Doel]

Yeah. After reading all of the responses here. I went and found an empty parking lot to try all of the modes.
Even in comfort mode, this car will spin 360* with the traction control and stability control on. I can feel a bit of difference between sport and comfort mode. But like I mentioned in my original post this ESC in its most restrictive mode is looser (less restrictive) than any other car I have driven in their most lenient mode.

I don’t think the variable is drive mode.
It seems that AWD vs RWD is the bigger factor, with the AWD models being more proactive in cutting power and reducing spins. It seems the two models definitely have different calibrations.

the TC/ESC in this car is bullcrap, I hate to say it. I've never seen something so inconsistent in a car model as this. With mine off I cannot do a 360, no way, no how, it cuts off throttle input every time and I'm RWD.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Now a word couple of words of praise for the Stinger ESC...

I have found that the car is super stable during cornering maneuvers that DON’T involve the throttle.
To date, I have not experienced a loss of traction front or rear, while cornering off the throttle or steady cruise.
The car simply grips and goes where the steering wheel is pointed. Trail braking (braking in/out of a corner) does not induce oversteer at all in this car (so far) no matter how slippery the surface is.

I don’t know if this is the ESC working (as I don’t hear/see/feel it) or if it is just a case of the chassis
having stellar grip and balance. In any event I don’t find that the car slides unless there is an application of power involved. +1 for the Stinger here. My Bimmers would try to oversteer a bit (but was quickly contained by ESC) if you turned too quickly while braking or swerved abruptly.

the TC/ESC in this car is bullcrap, I hate to say it. I've never seen something so inconsistent in a car model as this. With mine off I cannot do a 360, no way, no how, it cuts off throttle input every time and I'm RWD.

You two need to swap cars and then get back to us.

 

[Ty Davis]

the TC/ESC in this car is bullcrap, I hate to say it. I've never seen something so inconsistent in a car model as this. With mine off I cannot do a 360, no way, no how, it cuts off throttle input every time and I'm RWD.

That’s what I’m trying to figure out... Is this ESC inconsistent, or is it just doing different things based on inputs/variables I may not be aware of? I think you are right, the ESC is inconsistent between models and on the road.

In contrast, my other cars ESC seemed to react the same way every time.

 

[MerlintheMad]

I think it's 99% driver input. You two are making both a subjective and objective analysis. The objective part is your comparative experience with other cars, filtered through your driving skill and style. The subjective part is hearing others comment and then trying to compare your experience with theirs.

 

[POS VETT]

Wait until they don't know how to park a car or how to fill a car with gas - autonomous driving/cars and EV.

I said this about the electronic nannies, "idiot-proof system creates idiots".

I'm never one who likes electronic nannies in a car, I usually drive on the street with stability control turned off. It has happened to me multiple times that a typical stability control system would have put me into a wall or a ditch with the way I drive.

 

[MerlintheMad]

I said this about the electronic nannies, "idiot-proof system creates idiots".

I'm never one who likes electronic nannies in a car, I usually drive on the street with stability control turned off. It has happened to me multiple times that a typical stability control system would have put me into a wall or a ditch with the way I drive.

It's why I didn't go all the way with a GT2. The GT1 had everything I wanted, sans "nannies" in the bargain.

 

[Kazz]

You are on the right track... ESC is about stabilizing the chassis during acceleration, braking, and cornering.
This can help prevent rollovers. But that was not it’s original purpose. SUV are popular today, so rollover mitigation is now important and included. But stability control arrived wayyyyyy before SUVs. When Mercedes invented ESC back in 1983, there were no SUVs.

Sedans and luxury cars had ESC long before SUVs got the tech.

However, you are correct that ESC works at the limit. But don’t think of it as at the vehicles limits (ie racecar/racing). ESC works at the tires TRACTION limit. That is totally different. You can reach the traction limit, simply backing out of your driveway (on ice for example). Anytime a wheel is spinning, sliding, locking, or otherwise not matched with actual vehicle speed, the traction limit has been exceeded. Think about ice, snow, gravel, wet leaves... all of these reduce traction. Similarly, cornering, braking, or accelerating to fast can also exceed the traction limit.

So the purpose of ESC is to keep the vehicle inside the limits of available traction (whatever that happens to be for a givin situation/surface). That oversteer and understeer are mitigated is simply a good consequence.
I will add that the BEST ESC systems can ride the traction limit very acutely. Others are too lenient, while so are even to intrusive.

A stability control system that allows 180* or even 360* spins (while in its most restrictive setting, at that) simply needs more development, calibration, and fine tuning. The US government has mandated ESC be standard on every vehicle for quite a while now. The technology really does save lives, reduce accidents, and shrink insurance premiums.

I can picture cars like (at least some of these Stingers) causing the government to go back and revise the ESC mandate with additional rules declaring exactly how many degrees of yaw (rotation/understeer/oversteer) the ESC can allow and still be legal. There are probably already laws/rules to that effect in place. If there are, some of the Stingers are certainly on at the upper limit of that spec.

That being said, I find the Stinger ESC to be very refined, but maybe that’s just because it is so relaxed in its responses. The hardware seems just as good as what was in my BMWs, the calibration is what I find lacking.

[/QUOTE]
And much of what you talk about sounds like TC, not ESC. I do wonder where the line is drawn between the two.

 

[Ty Davis]

And much of what you talk about sounds like TC, not ESC. I do wonder where the line is drawn between the two.

Traction control and stability control go hand in hand.
You can have traction control without stability control.
However, traction control is a part of stability control.
Additionally, anti lock brakes is a required component for both.

The difference:
Antilock Brakes - monitors wheel speeds during braking and modulates the brake pressure electro-hydraulicy to prevent wheels from skidding during brake application.

Traction control - Uses the ABS system to monitor wheel speeds and prevent/reduce wheelspin under acceleration. TC can cut ignition timing, close the throttle body, up shift the transmission, or apply brake pressure to a spinning wheel to stop excess wheelspin.

Stability Control - uses traction control and abs to stabilize a vehicle in situations where the vehicles direction deviates from where the steering wheel is pointed. Reducing power output, and applying brake pressure to select wheels, enable the ESC to steer the car in the direction that the driver has pointed the steering wheel. These tactics can also prevent the car from yawing (turning/rotating) excessively or not enough in response to the steering wheel (understeer/oversteer).

But basically,
ABS assists in stopping.
Traction Control assists in accelerating.
Stability Control assists in turning (curves/direction changes).

It all falls under the category of stability control. But through the evolution of time, the system has gained more and more functions, with more to come.

 

[tgurian]

Yes. The AWD models do have a more traditional calibration.
The non LSD (Limited Slip Differential) RWD may have a different calibration too.

Mine is RWD with LSD (Limited Slip Differential).

I can confirm this. I'm in an '19 AWD GT1 and find that the ESC is quite standard, and by that I mean intrusive. I got power cut on me the other day in the rain when pulling out from an uphill stop and was slightly annoyed! Have yet to play around with turning it off, might not bother.

 

[Revvdmedia]

I tried to see if the car could start a donut on dry pavement because I needed to do a U-turn...the car gave me a big middle finger to that attempt. ESC and TCS "off." The power was there to make it happen, but the ESC wasn't having it.

 

[Doel]

I tried to see if the car could start a donut on dry pavement because I needed to do a U-turn...the car gave me a big middle finger to that attempt. ESC and TCS "off." The power was there to make it happen, but the ESC wasn't having it.

It's funny, with my ESC and TCS on I can slide the back end around corners a bit with zero cut. With it off, same as you, it'll come in and stop me from doing doughnuts. Very confusing.

 

[tgurian]

I tried to see if the car could start a donut on dry pavement because I needed to do a U-turn...the car gave me a big middle finger to that attempt. ESC and TCS "off." The power was there to make it happen, but the ESC wasn't having it.

This is concerning. I was under the impression that when the ECS and TCS were off, they were OFF. There should be no interference from either system. Are you confident that there wasn't some external factor preventing you from breaking loose?

 

[Revvdmedia]

This is concerning. I was under the impression that when the ECS and TCS were off, they were OFF. There should be no interference from either system. Are you confident that there wasn't some external factor preventing you from breaking loose?

Nothing that I could think of. No bumps in the road or anything else. Car was in sport with all aids turned off. As soon as the back end broke loose even a little, it pulled all throttle. Oddly enough though, it does drift on snow.