New JB4 Stinger Dyno Results!

[Revvdmedia]

I suggest getting a baseline Map 0 log before you go onto the maps so at least you have a starting point. Get a good third or fourth gear long pull from about 3000 up or so, and log some 0-60's if you want. I did not do baseline logs and now I need to do some to see if my car is slow or performing as it should. I'm at 2200ft and I have yet to beat a 5.15s 0-60 with launch control per JB4 indicated times (I know, inaccurate), or a 13.19 @ 107mph with Map 2. Those are stock AWD times (probably at sea level). I expected high 12's at my altitude. Maybe my car is just slow to begin with. The only thing I've seen in my logs compared to numerous others I have looked at is my timing overall feels lower than the "better running" cars. Terry does not note octane issues since I am not getting timing pulls from individual cylinders, but I still think my overall timing could be stronger. I just pulled my best street launch at JB4 indicated 5.25s this week when I went down from Map 2 to Map 6 pulling a flat +4 boost.

 

[Adamdan]

Lots of speculation blowing around about 'inferior' premium gasoline in Canada - and I've yet to see any empirical evidence to support that.

Canadian gasoline has strict requirements for quality and content including the advertised octane rating, fuel is regularly tested, and I seriously doubt that the refineries have been pulling a fast one on anyone ...

Every tuner I’ve talked to has said Canadian gas is not as good as American. Take a look at all the gtr forums so many guys go across the border and fill up there gtr to reduce knock count and preventing the car to go into safe mode. Same thing for Subaru’s guys using 91 us tunes but have to drop down to the 89 setting to stop pre ignition.

 

[cornpop1]

So I should feel safer using US 91 w/ Map 2 right?
I'll do some logs for base, map1 and map2 this weekend.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Guess someone needs to risk damaging their engine to send logs to terry.

You will not damage your engine using lower octane fuels... Almost all modern ECUs will detect knock and retard timing advance to compensate. You will just lose power & MPG since the engine will run less efficiently and you will have to use more throttle/fuel for equal performance.

It would just defeat the purpose of using Map2, and maybe slower, since the HP/TQ would likely be about the same as Map1. Using less than premium fuel on our high performance engines typical loses about the same 10-15whp & up to 15% worse MPG.

 

[Manaz]

Higher octane fuels have LESS energy, but better knock resistance.

Some clarity here.

When it comes to specific energy (energy stored in a given volume) levels, petrol is petrol is petrol (or gas is gas is gas).

PON91 gasoline has the same specific energy as PON89, and the same specific energy as PON94. Yes, the higher the octane the more it resists pre-ignition or detonation (because it burns slower), and thus your engine can run more advanced timing to get more power out of it (so you burn it more efficiently - noting this is a separate efficiency issue to complete burn and stoichiometric ratios).

If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't get more power out of higher octane gasoline without burning more of it.

Where the "higher octane, lower specific energy" thing is true is when you talk about different fuel types - petrol (gas) vs ethanol vs LPG (diesel is different, it has cetene ratings rather than octane, and is burned in a completely different way where pre-detonation is basically impossible - diesels sound like they're "knocking", but this is caused by a completely different behaviour than in a petrol/gasoline engine). In these cases, you have to burn more of a fuel to release the same energy - so you'd burn a larger volume of ethanol to get 400hp than you'd burn to get 400hp from petrol/gasoline. Be careful of specific energy comparisons of LPG - it had more energy per kg than petrol, but has a much lower specific mass (about half that of water, as opposed to petrol/gasoline at ~80% of water), so energy per litre/gallon is lower.

Where this has the potential to get confusing is in blended fuels - ethanol blends are common. E85 for instance contains less energy than E10 (because it has a higher ratio of ethanol to petrol/gasoline), and both have less energy than pure petrol/gasoline - the only way you produce more power on these fuels than on pure petrol/gasoline is to burn more of them (and thus get lower fuel economy in terms of L/100kms or mpg).

 

[turboAWD]

Thanks Manaz.

I had always heard that there was a slight difference overall in energy content of, say 87 vs 93, but the advantage of advanced timing more than made up for the slight loss..

 

[Ek9max]

That was one guy, who is also at like 5000 feet above sea level haha....He could also have something going on with his car etc...

I plan on getting my JB4 soonish and will do some runs to see what I get. Also I will do some dragy times and test different fules

-Petro 94
-Costco 91
-Shell 91

I would be very interesting in seeing this.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

I would be very interesting in seeing this.

Yeah I agree because a lot of Canadian's have complained about poor performance due to their fuels. I did also read that most of that is due to "winter gas" or whatever fuels they use during certain months.

I guess us Floridian's(or wherever else they have real premium fuel of 93 octane) are just lucky. I previously only used Shell or Chevron w/Techron, but found the latest Synergy Supreme+ from Mobil is by far the best gas in my Stinger and wont use anything else unless I absolutely have to.

 

[Ek9max]

Yeah I agree because a lot of Canadian's have complained about poor performance due to their fuels. I did also read that most of that is due to "winter gas" or whatever fuels they use during certain months.

I guess us Floridian's(or wherever else they have real premium fuel of 93 octane) are just lucky. I previously only used Shell or Chevron w/Techron, but found the latest Synergy Supreme+ from Mobil is by far the best gas in my Stinger and wont use anything else unless I absolutely have to.

Interesting. There are no mobil stations in calgary except for one right by my house.

I filled up with costco 91 this morning to give it a shot. It's 23 cents/Litre cheaper than Shell!!!

 

[Terry@BMS]

There is a lot of regional differences in fuel for whatever reasons. The best pump fuel I've seen is the stuff in Germany. They rate it RON99 (which, is similar to 94 RM2 octane) but it performs like unleaded race gas. And the worst is probably the Canadian 94 which sometimes acts like 93 octane, sometimes like 91 octane, and sometimes like 89 octane. lol

 

[Revvdmedia]

Yeah I agree because a lot of Canadian's have complained about poor performance due to their fuels. I did also read that most of that is due to "winter gas" or whatever fuels they use during certain months.

I guess us Floridian's(or wherever else they have real premium fuel of 93 octane) are just lucky. I previously only used Shell or Chevron w/Techron, but found the latest Synergy Supreme+ from Mobil is by far the best gas in my Stinger and wont use anything else unless I absolutely have to.

I've been looking at a lot of 1/4 mile times from various users, reviewing logs (to the best of my understanding) and drilling Terry with questions.

As a general finding, I have typically seen AWD GT2 spec Stingers in Canada performing a few 10ths slower than equally tuned (or stock) USA counterparts. I always consider altitude in this factor and look at logs as backup when available.

What would be needed for evidence is 2 equally spec'd Stingers (or the same one) performing 1/4 mile tests both without a tune and with Map 2 on Canada 91 Octane and USA 91 Octane to really see if there is a difference. For example, if both cars pulled 13.3s 1/4 mile stock, and the USA consistently performed 12.7s 1/4 mile on Map 2 but the Canadian car performed 13.0s consistently on Map 2, upon reviewing logs, it could be possibly determined if the knock resistance of the two fuels are comparable or not?

 

[Revvdmedia]

Interesting. There are no mobil stations in calgary except for one right by my house.

I filled up with costco 91 this morning to give it a shot. It's 23 cents/Litre cheaper than Shell!!!

I have a tank of Costco 91 in my car right now too. I haven't done a 3rd or 4th long pull yet, but I did pull my quickest JB4 indicated street start 0-60 when scaled back to a flat 4psi map (a hair less than Map 2) on this Costco 91. It might be as good as Shell from what I see in my logs. A long pull will be more definitive.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Interesting. There are no mobil stations in calgary except for one right by my house.

I filled up with costco 91 this morning to give it a shot. It's 23 cents/Litre cheaper than Shell!!!

Wonder if the CAN Mobil is the same as the new Synergy Supreme in FL. And curious to see if Costco would be as good as Shell too.

I've been looking at a lot of 1/4 mile times from various users, reviewing logs (to the best of my understanding) and drilling Terry with questions.

As a general finding, I have typically seen AWD GT2 spec Stingers in Canada performing a few 10ths slower than equally tuned (or stock) USA counterparts. I always consider altitude in this factor and look at logs as backup when available.

What would be needed for evidence is 2 equally spec'd Stingers (or the same one) performing 1/4 mile tests both without a tune and with Map 2 on Canada 91 Octane and USA 91 Octane to really see if there is a difference. For example, if both cars pulled 13.3s 1/4 mile stock, and the USA consistently performed 12.7s 1/4 mile on Map 2 but the Canadian car performed 13.0s consistently on Map 2, upon reviewing logs, it could be possibly determined if the knock resistance of the two fuels are comparable or not?

I agree with your findings except your numbers seem about .2-3sec on the conservative side. Stock RWD Stingers run 12.7-12.9 and AWDs usually about .2sec slower. Stock Map2 RWD Stingers run as low as 12.4 and thats without LSD so 2.0+ 60ft traction issues. Stock Map2 AWD Stingers dont have traction issues and should be closer to 12.5s.

But yes all that info, as well as dyno results, would be very helpful and finally resolve the poor CAN fuel debate.

 

[JDM_Man]

I've been looking at a lot of 1/4 mile times from various users, reviewing logs (to the best of my understanding) and drilling Terry with questions.

As a general finding, I have typically seen AWD GT2 spec Stingers in Canada performing a few 10ths slower than equally tuned (or stock) USA counterparts. I always consider altitude in this factor and look at logs as backup when available.

What would be needed for evidence is 2 equally spec'd Stingers (or the same one) performing 1/4 mile tests both without a tune and with Map 2 on Canada 91 Octane and USA 91 Octane to really see if there is a difference. For example, if both cars pulled 13.3s 1/4 mile stock, and the USA consistently performed 12.7s 1/4 mile on Map 2 but the Canadian car performed 13.0s consistently on Map 2, upon reviewing logs, it could be possibly determined if the knock resistance of the two fuels are comparable or not?

hehe, I am 40 min from the border with 93 Octane. I could test this once I have a JB4, we could compare the exact same car with 94/91 Canadian fuel vs 93 American fuel.

 

[Revvdmedia]

hehe, I am 40 min from the border with 93 Octane. I could test this once I have a JB4, we could compare the exact same car with 94/91 Canadian fuel vs 93 American fuel.

Please do! Just keep in mind the car needs a few runs (I don't know how many "a few") to fully adapt to the fuel and maximize ignition advance based on what the car learns at full throttle.

 

[JDM_Man]

Please do! Just keep in mind the car needs a few runs (I don't know how many "a few") to fully adapt to the fuel and maximize ignition advance based on what the car learns at full throttle.

Plan would be to do a full tank and run mid way during the week once the car adapts.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Please do! Just keep in mind the car needs a few runs (I don't know how many "a few") to fully adapt to the fuel and maximize ignition advance based on what the car learns at full throttle.

Most tuners said several WOT runs to fully adapt so 5+ should be a safe bet.

 

[Secondchance]

Interesting. There are no mobil stations in calgary except for one right by my house.

I filled up with costco 91 this morning to give it a shot. It's 23 cents/Litre cheaper than Shell!!!

mobil in Canada is Esso using their parent company branding. So the 91 octane you get from Mobil is the same as you'd get from Esso.

Also, if you're running inferior 91 octane fuels like costco, centex, 7-11 etc, you need to expect inferior results. As we'd discussed previously, shell 91 in Canada is far and away the best 91 option.

 

[Revvdmedia]

mobil in Canada is Esso using their parent company branding. So the 91 octane you get from Mobil is the same as you'd get from Esso.

Also, if you're running inferior 91 octane fuels like costco, centex, 7-11 etc, you need to expect inferior results. As we'd discussed previously, shell 91 in Canada is far and away the best 91 option.

I am genuinely interested if Costco is inferior to Shell. As per another Canadian user that inquired with Costco, apparently 91 octane Costco gas is ethanol free and it is also listed as Top Tier. I realize those two attributes do not make a superior fuel themselves, but those two credentials are attributes that Shell carries. I guess the proof would be in the logs, so to speak.

 

[xot1]

Most tuners said several WOT runs to fully adapt so 5+ should be a safe bet.

I really would like to know how many are needed.
I usually do 2.