Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[KLR STINGER]

I would have to agree with helo on this one. I honestly don't know what " research " Angel had done, but he's still missing a fundamental understanding of what Terry is trying to articulate patiently as he can. Watching some YouTube videos is never going going to help him understand the electrical engineering and software logic paths one would need to understand to really know the difference and the benefits a properly implemented piggy back wold have with a detailed understanding of those logic paths.

Let me use a simple analogy from the movie the matrix, when Neo tries to bend the spoon.

The ECU OS controls are like the rules of the matrix. Editing the calibration is like trying bend the spoon. You can try to bend it, but certain rules govern it.

The jb4 simply tells the ECU there is no spoon, there by circumventing the controls of the ECU entirely in very specific ways.

Not a criticism of Angel other than frankly he's not anyone with the understanding to making any proclamation as to what's better.

Moreover, this whole idea that there is a ones better than the other is flawed. They ultimately serve complementary purposes, and together will allow for the utmost control of behaviors of the systems in that scope of control.

Right now, the ecu definitions are just starting to come out, and at its current state of discovery, no clear advantage between platforms is evident. The fact that people argue one is better than the other when there is little daylight between them in performance, is absurd.

One last thing. Ecu "tuners" love to pretend they have some special magic only they have. It really makes them feel superior or something. The reality is that anyone with a couple Grand can buy any of the commonly used ecu tuning platforms, and get access to the tuning "network" that shares definitions freely. Sooner or later they all have access to them, and everyone can do the same "magic".

Lastly Notice how it's always the pro ECU tuning camps bashing piggy backs and not the other way around? Terry never says ECU tuning is dangerous or interior. Only States the fact that piggy backs add an external logic layer outside of the ecu OS that offers features that cannot be added to the ECU via calibration.

I'm done...

 

[Angel]

Look, it is not hate. I have no reason to hate Angel. In retrospect, I just don't understand his positions in the "tuner vs tuner" debacle a few weeks ago (a.k.a. now) between Terry and Tork. His frequent postings led me to believe he knew more than he does. In light of that, it seems that he is awful outspoken regarding something he now apparently knows little about. His questions come off as some huge revelation, when in fact the answers to them shouldn't be.

As far as asking questions, much of what he is "asking" has already been asked and answered multiple times and in multiple places. As active as he is on this forum, maybe a few minutes of listening rather than posting might be beneficial.

It’s not that I don’t read ... I always read all the posts .... it’s just when I research the more I research, the more contracdicting information I find .... I mean am I suppose to just take Terry answer and run with it?? That’s the main problem that everyone just takes answer and run with them .... Terry is very knowledgeable but he also has and agenda to follow, he makes the JB4 for god sakes so of course his answers will be biased and anyone that disagrees with that is just plain stupid ......Terry is great at writing in very technical details and controlling the narrative .... I ask questions to see the consistency on the answers .... everyone here gets offended and all the JB4 fan boys go crazy ... there nothing wrong with questioning a product you are using ..... there is a reason why the JB4 failed at Tunning the hybrid turbos and will not be a success unless the car get a proper ecu tune .... Terry mask the JB4 issues trying to do back end flash when in reality the back end flash is giving you all the performance aka the ecu tune .....look by no means Im a an expert .... but I am really hands on person and have modified numerous cars including my own .... there is a reason why went I bought my is 300 I bought a full standalone pro efi 128..... but look my apologies in some of you guys get offended after all it is a piggyback ecu tune discussion.... cheers and thanks for your support

 

[Angel]

I would have to agree with helo on this one. I honestly don't know what " research " Angel had done, but he's still missing a fundamental understanding of what Terry is trying to articulate patiently as he can. Watching some YouTube videos is never going going to help him understand the electrical engineering and software logic paths one would need to understand to really know the difference and the benefits a properly implemented piggy back wold have with a detailed understanding of those logic paths.

Let me use a simple analogy from the movie the matrix, when Neo tries to bend the spoon.

The ECU OS controls are like the rules of the matrix. Editing the calibration is like trying bend the spoon. You can try to bend it, but certain rules govern it.

The jb4 simply tells the ECU there is no spoon, there by circumventing the controls of the ECU entirely in very specific ways.

Not a criticism of Angel other than frankly he's not anyone with the understanding to making any proclamation as to what's better.

Moreover, this whole idea that there is a ones better than the other is flawed. They ultimately serve complementary purposes, and together will allow for the utmost control of behaviors of the systems in that scope of control.

Right now, the ecu definitions are just starting to come out, and at its current state of discovery, no clear advantage between platforms is evident. The fact that people argue one is better than the other when there is little daylight between them in performance, is absurd.

One last thing. Ecu "tuners" love to pretend they have some special magic only they have. It really makes them feel superior or something. The reality is that anyone with a couple Grand can buy any of the commonly used ecu tuning platforms, and get access to the tuning "network" that shares definitions freely. Sooner or later they all have access to them, and everyone can do the same "magic".

Lastly Notice how it's always the pro ECU tuning camps bashing piggy backs and not the other way around? Terry never says ECU tuning is dangerous or interior. Only States the fact that piggy backs add an external logic layer outside of the ecu OS that offers features that cannot be added to the ECU via calibration.

I'm done...

Great info .... ok I understand and great analogy from the matrix. Ok now all the builds I seen at the track and all the cars I have Built or helped built all use ecu tunes or and if they can’t crack the ecu they use standalone ecu like a pro efi, haltech etc .... even when you look at high horsepowers builds or go other forums all the high horse power cars use ecu tunes .... look at GTR, Lambo, Toyota Supra’s , Evo, Subaru’s etc .... all there high HP builds use ecu tunes or standalone ecu .... so I honestly find it hard to believe why they don’t run piggybacks if there Better ? But look you are extremely smart and I have no reason to disagree with you .... but this are all questions that I can ask 10 different tuners/ people and they all could lean one way or the other ....another thing is why does the JB4 need a back end flash to run hybrid turbos? I know the answer lol .... but I will agree to disagree with you sir ... I respect your opinion and I ask is for you to respect mine to able to respectfully disagree .... nonetheless your one of a few people on this forum that I actually read your post and take them seriously because I can tell you know your stuff and you don’t have an agenda to follow ...

 

[Helo58]

It’s not that I don’t read ... I always read all the posts .... it’s just when I research the more I research, the more contracdicting information I find .... I mean am I suppose to just take Terry answer and run with it?? That’s the main problem that everyone just takes answer and run with them .... Terry is very knowledgeable but he also has and agenda to follow, he makes the JB4 for god sakes so of course his answers will be biased and anyone that disagrees with that is just plain stupid ......Terry is great at writing in very technical details and controlling the narrative .... I ask questions to see the consistency on the answers .... everyone here gets offended and all the JB4 fan boys go crazy ... there nothing wrong with questioning a product you are using ..... there is a reason why the JB4 failed at Tunning the hybrid turbos and will not be a success unless the car get a proper ecu tune .... Terry mask the JB4 issues trying to do back end flash when in reality the back end flash is giving you all the performance aka the ecu tune .....look by no means Im a an expert .... but I am really hands on person and have modified numerous cars including my own .... there is a reason why went I bought my is 300 I bought a full standalone pro efi 128..... but look my apologies in some of you guys get offended after all it is a piggyback ecu tune discussion.... cheers and thanks for your support

You are missing the point here. You can't in one breath say, "I mean am I suppose (sic) to just take Terry (sic) answer and run with it??" and then continue to ask Terry for more information that you are going to question. There is ample information on the topic here and other places that you could use to resolve your unanswered questions rather than continue to go to a source you claim is biased and possibly (according to you) giving you bogus information.

 

[KLR STINGER]

Using a stand alone ecu with the feature set you want/need based on your hardware is the ultimate engine control setup for a race car, but not practical when you're talking about a new street car with modern integrated subsystems like body control, infotainment, HVAC, etc. Some high end builds like the UGR lambos run "stand alone" to manage things like fuel, boost and timing controls, but leave the OEM ecu in place to integrate with some of those other control systems. Basically acting as a piggy back for parts of the equation.

Again, all cars need an ECU and the best calibration possible to run it. The jb4 supplements that with and additional control layer beyond what was required by the base engineering spec for the motor In question.

 

[Angel]

You are missing the point here. You can't in one breath say, "I mean am I suppose (sic) to just take Terry (sic) answer and run with it??" and then continue to ask Terry for more information that you are going to question. There is ample information on the topic here and other places that you could use to resolve your unanswered questions rather than continue to go to a source you claim is biased and possibly (according to you) giving you bogus information.

Well as a customer I am asking questions... but seriously answer this with a yes or no ... so your tell me that you beleive that Terry answers won’t be bias when it comes to the JB4 ? Seriously ??? I mean seriously ??? Just please answer me that question .....

 

[Angel]

Using a stand alone ecu with the feature set you want/need based on your he contain is the ultimate engine control setup for a race car, but not practical when you're talking about a newnew str car with modern integrated subsystems like body control, infotainment, HVAC, etc. Some high end builds like the UGR lambos run "stand alone" to manage things like fuel, boost and timing controls, but leave the OEM ecu in place to integrate with some of those other control systems. Basically acting as a piggy back for parts of the equation.

Again, all cars need an ECU and the best calibration possible to run it. The jb4 supplements that with and additional control layer beyond what was required by the base engineering spec for the motor In question.

Agreed that how my Lexus IS 300 is set up ... the oem ecu runs most of the car... the standalone runs fuel, boost, timing , shift points and some other things as well .... agree acts as piggy back but it’s not a piggy back ....

 

[Angel]

Using a stand alone ecu with the feature set you want/need based on your hardware is the ultimate engine control setup for a race car, but not practical when you're talking about a new street car with modern integrated subsystems like body control, infotainment, HVAC, etc. Some high end builds like the UGR lambos run "stand alone" to manage things like fuel, boost and timing controls, but leave the OEM ecu in place to integrate with some of those other control systems. Basically acting as a piggy back for parts of the equation.

Again, all cars need an ECU and the best calibration possible to run it. The jb4 supplements that with and additional control layer beyond what was required by the base engineering spec for the motor In question.

Question are you like an undercover tuner or something ? Are you an American disguised as a Canadian ? Lol jk

 

[Helo58]

Well as a customer I am asking questions... but seriously answer this with a yes or no ... so your tell me that you beleive that Terry answers won’t be bias when it comes to the JB4 ? Seriously ??? I mean seriously ??? Just please answer me that question .....

Again, not the point. Who cares if Terry is biased? I don't have to take Terry's word for it. You have the tools to know the truth by multiple UNBIASED sources, here and elsewhere. You simply aren't availing yourself of them.

 

[KLR STINGER]

Well as a customer I am asking questions... but seriously answer this with a yes or no ... so your tell me that you beleive that Terry answers won’t be bias when it comes to the JB4 ? Seriously ??? I mean seriously ??? Just please answer me that question .....

I'll answer that with a resounding yes. His reputation is unimpeachable, and more importantly I know enough to know what he says is objectively true. If his past history, documented success, and my third party validation isn't enough, then I don't know what's going to convince you.

I'm not a jb4 fan boy. I've never used a bms product before the stinger, but I have followed his work for near a decade. I have turbos being built right now, and know I'll need an ECU tune for some areas of control I want, and the jb4 for others. Your clearly a cynic, and that's fine, but nothing you're going to read on the internet researching piggy back vs tuning is going to help you formulate a better opinion.

 

[KLR STINGER]

Question are you like an undercover tuner or something ? Are you an American disguised as a Canadian ? Lol jk

I get accused of being a secret tuner more than you think.. Lol. I've just always preferred to learn about my ECU and tune it myself where possible. I'd rather buy the tools and learn the skills to do it myself, then pay someone else to do it. Over the years I've used most of the major tuning platforms and hence have the understanding I do.

 

[Angel]

I'll answer that with a resounding yes. His reputation is unimpeachable, and more importantly I know enough to know what he says is objectively true. If his party history, documented success, and my third party validation isn't enough, then I don't know what's going to convince you.

I'm not a jb4 fan boy. I've never used a bms product before the stinger, but I have followed his work for near a decade. I have turbos being built right now, and know I'll need an ECU tune for some areas of control I want, and the jb4 for others. Your clearly a cynic, but nothing you're going to read on the internet researching piggy back be tuning is going to help you formulate a better opinion.

Shame on you for not owning a BMS product .... I own a JB4 and it’s great .... you are correct about as far Terry reputation is good I won’t disagree with that .... he might not be so popular on the Honda forum/FB or the opposite he might be very popular on the Honda forum , Terry can speak on that lol ... but yes most of the the information online states otherwise about piggybacks ....anyways you have provided me some great info, thanks it’s about to be tomorrow and I need to hit the sack , need to be up by 5 am ....

 

[Angel]

I get accused of being a secret tuner more than you think.. Lol. I've just always preferred to learn about my ECU and tune it myself where possible. I'd rather buy the tools and learn the skills to do it myself, then pay someone else to do it. Over the years I've used most of the major tuning platforms and hence have the understanding I do.

You sir have some big cojones .... FYI cojones means balls ..... I personally prefer to pay when it comes to Tunning lol .... keep this a secret between me and you I blew and engine once Tunning my own car lol ... I tuned my Lexus great but I used an eBay kit on my first built and then raced and srt viper and the wastegate didn’t open lol and boost spiked to 35 psi .... and piston rings went out , surprisingly that 2JZ engine did not die on me I was able to drive the car home but a lot of white smoke was coming out of the exhaust .... thats when I decided to fully built my engine with forged internals ...

 

[Terry@BMS]

Using a stand alone ecu with the feature set you want/need based on your hardware is the ultimate engine control setup for a race car, but not practical when you're talking about a new street car with modern integrated subsystems like body control, infotainment, HVAC, etc. Some high end builds like the UGR lambos run "stand alone" to manage things like fuel, boost and timing controls, but leave the OEM ecu in place to integrate with some of those other control systems. Basically acting as a piggy back for parts of the equation.

Again, all cars need an ECU and the best calibration possible to run it. The jb4 supplements that with and additional control layer beyond what was required by the base engineering spec for the motor In question.

Exactly! For heavily modified cars we're here to do on the JB4 end whatever can't be handled on the ECU end. As the ECU flashing develops we're here developing the JB4 to take advantage of those changes and add new features. Case in point on the BMW N54 platform, ECU flashing advances allowed us to add an anti-lag setup to the JB4 for lag-free rolling race starts.

For lightly modified cars the JB4 is well proven by the many 100s of Stinger customers and many thousands of other-than-Stinger customers running it successfully over the last decade.

 

[brancky3]

Case in point on the BMW N54 platform, ECU flashing advances allowed us to add an anti-lag setup to the JB4 for lag-free rolling race starts.

For lightly modified cars the JB4 is well proven by the many 100s of Stinger customers and many thousands of other-than-Stinger customers running it successfully over the last decade.

God I hope you can get us some sort of anti-lag / two-step once the BEF is sorted; that would give JB4 a HUGE advantage over any other type of tuning on this platform

 

[Kamauxx]

You are missing the point here. You can't in one breath say, "I mean am I suppose (sic) to just take Terry (sic) answer and run with it??" and then continue to ask Terry for more information that you are going to question. There is ample information on the topic here and other places that you could use to resolve your unanswered questions rather than continue to go to a source you claim is biased and possibly (according to you) giving you bogus information.

You (and Terry) are saints.

You must be a school teacher, or have a lot of kids/neices/nephews.

 

[Helo58]

You (and Terry) are saints.

You must be a school teacher, or have a lot of kids/neices/nephews.

Close, I used to manage several millennials at my last job.

 

[oddball]

Close, I used to manage several millennials at my last job.

LOL! Oh god, I just laughed out loud during a training session at work because, well, yes. Managing millennials is a special task.

 

[Angel]

LOL! Oh god, I just laughed out loud during a training session at work because, well, yes. Managing millennials is a special task.

How old are you ? Millennial can be anyone from 22-37 ?? I don’t fully get your point ?

 

[Angel]

Close, I used to manage several millennials at my last job.

What does this mean ?? Lol ....I work with several baby boomers and x generation guys at my current job ... well you know how that goes ....I currently manage some baby boomers and generation x people ....