Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Adamdan]

The chart looks fairly typical for a pump gas. If it's on map2 I'd leave it. If it's on map3 I'd probably drop down to map2.

It’s almost a 30% mix of E85.... it was 91 octane that had 10% already and I added another 20%. Oh I also see similar timing with map 0 with 91 so maybe it’s just the norm for my car.

 

[Tonkabob]

A 3 degree drop is a timing correction. Multiple timing corrections in the same cylinder and gear that recover then drop again indicate your tuned too aggressively for the fuel quality. Lower the boost or increase the octane.

Repeated 3 degree drops in the same cylinder, such that timing looks like a downward stair case as engine speed is going up, indicates knock.

Isn't there minor and mega knock? 1.5 drop is minor correction and may not be knock at all. -3 drop is mega knock and is most likely real knock. The "timing correction" of -3 occurs because of knock.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Isn't there minor and mega knock? 1.5 drop is minor correction and may not be knock at all. -3 drop is mega knock and is most likely real knock. The "timing correction" of -3 occurs because of knock.

There can be timing corrections at ~1.5 degrees under some situations but generally speaking the system works as I outlined it above. The lower the octane and the higher the boost the more 3 degree drops you'll see as the ideal timing curve is hunted per cylinder. Which is the indication that it's time to lower boost or raise octane. Doing this full time in the background is one of the pillars of JB4's auto tuning maps.

Also not included above: If you experience what's called "super knock" which means that knock continues to be detected after multiple almost simultaneous timing corrections to a single cylinder, the ECU presumes you are experiencing preigniton rather than detonation and shuts down the cylinder, throws a "super knock" fault code. Any time you have a "super knock" fault code stored then something is seriously too aggressive or physically wrong.

 

[Angel]

Guys been doing some research on piggybacks and ecu tunes.......Seems like the masses agree that ECU tune is the way to go for optimal performance....Also been reasing some articles that piggyback can also be detected if the dealer really wanted too and the tech knew what he was doing.....will post some info for you guys to read and make your own mind....
Debate: Can BMW detect a Piggyback and will they void your warranty for it
Help me understand proper tune vs. Piggyback

 

[Terry@BMS]

It's a very specific application specific details business and most people who publicly state their opinion don't fully understand all the details involved.

If you're looking for anecdotal feedback this post is fairly typical of what we hear from dealership "insiders" out in the field:

BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum - View Single Post - Any advantage to buying a new JB4?

 

[Oryan]

Could have sworn this forum beat that horse already.

 

[Angel]

It's a specific details business and most people don't fully understand the details involved. This post is fairly typical of what we hear from dealership "insiders" out in the field.

BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum - View Single Post - Any advantage to buying a new JB4?

The research that I have done there are no performance advantages to a piggyback compared to an ecu tune....Some pros for some are the fact that you remove before dealer visits, maybe resale value....in reality performance wise the ECU tune will outperform a piggyback all day long....

 

[Terry@BMS]

Could have sworn this forum beat that horse already.

People still argue that the world is flat. So good luck with that.

 

[Angel]

Could have sworn this forum beat that horse already.

What was the verdict? what is this thread for? if not to discuss piggyback vs ecu tune?

 

[Terry@BMS]

The research that I have done there are no performance advantages to a piggyback compared to an ecu tune....Some pros for some are the fact that you remove before dealer visits, maybe resale value....in reality performance wise the ECU tune will outperform a piggyback all day long....

There are, and I've explained them, but I see little reason to repeat myself as my posts are in this this very thread.

 

[Angel]

There are, and I've explained them, but I see little reason to repeat myself as my posts are in this this very thread.

I agree but now that i have actually done some research most of the stuff you mentioned does not fully make sense to me....For example that the JB4 can provide extra safety parameter....The ecu can do this if tuned properly.....Also piggyback is just hiding information from ecu and the ecu has constantly fight that, while a tune sets the parameters where the engine can run optimally...I get the boost by gear deal and data logging but is that needed with a proper tune? How safe is the JB4? It just seems like a lot of missing information to me .....Seems like the Jb4 is constantly fooling the ecu and feeding the ecu incorrect information, is that true Terry?? Is this good for the car? just curious

 

[brancky3]

The ECU doesn't need to fight anything since it doesn't know anything is different. I think right now is a bad time to go with an existing ECU tuning vendor with how many platform developments are being worked on currently. You can't take an ECU tune off and sell it if something better comes along, but you can with JB4. Although, I'm banking on Terry getting a back end flash for us

 

[Angel]

The ECU doesn't need to fight anything since it doesn't know anything is different. I think right now is a bad time to go with an existing ECU tuning vendor with how many platform developments are being worked on currently. You can't take an ECU tune off and sell it if something better comes along, but you can with JB4. Although, I'm banking on Terry getting a back end flash for us

I dont understand how feeding the ecu incorrect information can be beneficial? To follow your logic if the the ecu doesn't know anything is different but your running 6 more psi or just more boost how is that beneficial to the engine or car? I am going to use an analogy and maybe its not a good one but for example if you are given an anesthesia shot and you cant feel anything and your mind thinks everything is ok and someone is repeatedly punching you in the face, at first you wont feel anything but when the effect goes away your face will be badly damaged and then you will feel the effects...how is that good? is not that what it is doing essentially? Agreed on the fact you cant take the tune off for sale, but you can always get a new tune or update a tune ......Yes the JB4 has resale value agree with you on that....but why should you need a back end flash with the JB4? Why not just a tune? If you have a proper tune with use a JB4?

 

[Terry@BMS]

I agree but now that i have actually done some research most of the stuff you mentioned does not fully make sense to me....For example that the JB4 can provide extra safety parameter....The ecu can do this if tuned properly.....Also piggyback is just hiding information from ecu and the ecu has constantly fight that, while a tune sets the parameters where the engine can run optimally...I get the boost by gear deal and data logging but is that needed with a proper tune? How safe is the JB4? It just seems like a lot of missing information to me .....Seems like the Jb4 is constantly fooling the ecu and feeding the ecu incorrect information, is that true Terry?? Is this good for the car? just curious

As I said no need to rehash things already posted in this very thread. Feel free to read through the thread again for details. But just a couple new points.

The ECU is limited to the logic path that is provided by the operating system. With flash tuning you're generally able to modify existing tables with new values, but you are not generally able to recreate new logic paths or dramatically change paths that are disadvantageous to performance. If you start to study flash tuned logs you'll find that in many cases the ECU doesn't abort runs when you expect it would. For example it allows full boost at a super lean 18:1 AFR and fuel pressure on the verge of collapse. Meanwhile with the JB4 you have whatever safety the ECU/flash offers PLUS have an intelligent programmable system looking at vehicle data full time all the time able to layer in extra logic.

Most flash tuners sell non-integrated piggybacks under different names to make up for the ECU's operational shortcomings. They are known as external water/meth controllers, external fuel pump controllers, 2STEP/WOT box, electronic boost controllers (in the case of Lap3's turbo kit), logging dongles, hobbs switches, etc, etc. These non-integrated systems are required to make up for shortcomings of the ECU but since they can't all communicate with each other are inherently less effective and safe than one external system like the JB4 that can do everything you need.

 

[Angel]

People still argue that the world is flat. So good luck with that.

Agree but there no data or facts proving that....so otherwise its just a theory that some choose to believe....but there is actually a lot of info regarding what piggybacks really do lol and why ecu tune is the way to go......all the information states that ecu tune trumps a piggyback in all ways ...performance wise that is, not counting like resale value and easy removal....

 

[Angel]

As I said no need to rehash things already posted in this very thread. Feel free to read through the thread again for details. But just a couple new points.

The ECU is limited to the logic path that is provided by the operating system. With flash tuning you're generally able to modify existing tables with new values, but you are not generally able to recreate new logic paths or dramatically change paths that are disadvantageous to performance. If you start to study flash tuned logs you'll find that in many cases the ECU doesn't abort runs when you expect it would. For example it allows full boost at a super lean 18:1 AFR and fuel pressure on the verge of collapse. Meanwhile with the JB4 you have whatever safety the ECU/flash offers PLUS have an intelligent programmable system looking at vehicle data full time all the time able to layer in extra logic.

Most flash tuners sell non-integrated piggybacks under different names to make up for the ECU's operational shortcomings. They are known as external water/meth controllers, external fuel pump controllers, 2STEP/WOT box, electronic boost controllers (in the case of Lap3's turbo kit), logging dongles, hobbs switches, etc, etc. These non-integrated systems are required to make up for shortcomings of the ECU but since the can't all communicate with each other are inherently less effective and safe than one external system like the JB4 that can do everything you need.

I disagree the ecu can have all the safety parameters you dont need a JB4 for that lol...so your saying car manufacturers dont know what there doing when they spend millions on RD and have huge resources available to them....So the ecu is not able to have/manage all those safety parameters set? so why dont the OEM cars dont come with JB4 then? Do you have any data or proof that is the case with the kia stinger? do you have any proof or data supporting that you are not able to recreate new logic paths or dramatically change paths that are disadvantageous to performance? So your saying a piggyback is better than an ecu tune? (Terry this is a yes or no question please no need for a paragraph) What is better in terms of performance a proper developed ECU tune or a piggyback?

 

[Terry@BMS]

You're still not really getting it. I'll make one last honest attempt to educate you a bit.

Whether you have a JB4 or not, there is always a flash tune running the engine. The JB4 is not driving the fuel injectors. The JB4 is not firing off the coils. It's not powering up the cam timing solenoids. It's just a device sitting out there externally to influence (or not influence) very specific aspects of the tuning. What is influenced depends entirely on the application and the needs. That might be adjusting the boost target up or down. It might be adjusting the air/fuel target up or down. Regardless the ECU is always running the show including all of it's factory safety systems.

The factory ECU's logic path is not always optimized for racing. A simple easy to understand example, modern load based targeting is meant to level the vehicles performance under various weather and elevation conditions. When it's cold and/or you're at a lower elevation boost is reduced. When it's hot and/or you're at a higher elevation boost is increased. This is done so the car always feels the same behind the wheel. While this is desirable for a factory car it's the exact opposite of what you'd want to do for performance tuning. When it's cold out you're working with a higher knock threshold and are able to push the engine harder. And when it's warm out you have a lower knock threshold and need to dial things back to keep it safe. In most applications (not yet the Stinger) one of our most popular JB4 features is optional absolute boost targeting that more closely follows performance tuning logic rather than OEM logic.

Regarding the extra JB4 systems in specific I have explained them so I'd encourage you to read up on my numerous previous posts to this thread and on the forum at large. Regarding why the ECU doesn't do everything we can do from the factory the short answer is can. But tuners like Tork can't make it do that. You'd need high end OEM engineers to adjust the logic paths and they simple don't offer it.

 

[Helo58]

Angel, if you seriously don't comprehend how a piggyback works, or can't differentiate between the JB4 and more mundane offerings, then I am not sure that you should be attempting a run at the 11s. I am amazed that you just now seem to be raising these questions in your own mind, arguing one side then another without even a cursory understanding of what they do. Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Angel, if you seriously don't comprehend how a piggyback works, or can't differentiate between the JB4 and more mundane offerings, then I am not sure that you should be attempting a run at the 11s. I am amazed that you just now seem to be raising these questions in your own mind, arguing one side then another without even a cursory understanding of what they do. Am I misunderstanding you?

I dont get all the hate and issue with a COMMUNITY MEMBER asking questions in a discussion thread about piggy backs vs ecu tunes.

What are we the civic community (Rough crowd)?

I dont see any issues with his questions. He owns a JB4 and he should question things with his car. He knows it doesnt feel right, he knows it shifts very hard now and has for a while. He has a right to ask questions.

 

[Helo58]

I dont get all the hate and issue with a COMMUNITY MEMBER asking questions in a discussion thread about piggy backs vs ecu tunes.

What are we the civic community (Rough crowd)?

I dont see any issues with his questions. He owns a JB4 and he should question things with his car. He knows it doesnt feel right, he knows it shifts very hard now and has for a while. He has a right to ask questions.

Look, it is not hate. I have no reason to hate Angel. In retrospect, I just don't understand his positions in the "tuner vs tuner" debacle a few weeks ago (a.k.a. now) between Terry and Tork. His frequent postings led me to believe he knew more than he does. In light of that, it seems that he is awful outspoken regarding something he now apparently knows little about. His questions come off as some huge revelation, when in fact the answers to them shouldn't be.

As far as asking questions, much of what he is "asking" has already been asked and answered multiple times and in multiple places. As active as he is on this forum, maybe a few minutes of listening rather than posting might be beneficial.