Harmon Kardon Sound System

[stoopid]

This is a very incorrect assumption, recording studios have been recording and mastering in higher that 16/44 for a very long time... and older analogue recordings have been remastered to high res... why? A. because the record labels make money doing it. B. An album that was mastered for vinyl has to be different than one mastered for any other medium (RIAA EQ, and gain limits) C. Preserving the recording - Tape has a finite shelf life, and every playback is detrimental to the tape.

I think RVance was suggesting that not all material available as 'high res' streaming is from higher resolution source material (actual masters), which I believe is slightly less true today as more material is being remixed/remastered by the record companies. To have a catalog to temp subscribers there were/are upconverted releases on those platforms. The number of albums available in actual high resolution is still relatively low compared to the catalog of all music ever recorded. Some albums will never see high resolution releases due to tape degradation and fires at storage facilities in past years. In some cases internal strife in the bands and/or management, record labels, etc prevent or stagnate high res/surround releases (thinking Pink Floyd's "Animals" as an example). It is, however, much easier for record companies to release a high res mix to these services on albums as they're released (new recordings), since the high res mix would be a byproduct of the mastering process anyway. But that only represents today's music, which is a drop in the bucket of all music ever made [and much of what we want to listen to is from yesterday].

Discussing actual high resolution playback on a car stereo is ludicrous IMO [see my prior posts]. Maybe in a Bentley or heavily sound deadened / modded project car. 99% of us would never desire or be able to afford to spend the amount of money and time to achieve a listening environment from the driver's seat where high resolution playback would be a reality.

Sorry for the long replies and edits, this is atopic I have some knowledge and to explain things succinctly requires more than a few words [as it appears Recal also has]

 

[RedCal]

Legit streaming services, get their content from legit sources... ie the record labels (or a third party service like 7Digital)
I know people at both Qobuz, and Tidal... so this is not guessing.... plus you you can read the incoming metadata tags... if they say its CD quality, it is, HiRes is anything over 24/96...

 

[stoopid]

Legit streaming services, get their content from legit sources... ie the record labels (or a third party service like 7Digital)
I know people at both Qobuz, and Tidal... so this is not guessing.... plus you you can read the incoming metadata tags... if they say its CD quality, it is, HiRes is anything over 24/96...

The reality is - most of the music ever made isn't on those services, so that would greatly limit people's enjoyment of music, not augment it [because of - see my last post]. I know from personal experience companies like HD Tracks are not upfront about their source material, and offer material that isn't what they claim it is. It's a small percent of their selection, which is a miniscule percent of all music ever recorded, so it's really not a big deal which is why it's not headline news. Few care about high res music because the selection is poor compared to other services that aren't inherently limited by the catalog available to them.

 

[RedCal]

The reality is - most of the music ever made isn't on those services, so that would greatly limit people's enjoyment of music, not augment it [because of - see my last post]. I know from personal experience companies like HD Tracks are not upfront about their source material, and offer material that isn't what they claim it is. It's a small percent of their selection, which is a miniscule percent of all music ever recorded, so it's really not a big deal which is why it's not headline news. Few care about high res music because the selection is poor compared to other services that aren't inherently limited by the catalog available to them.

Sorry.. Going to disagree again, Tidal has 10million more tracks than Spotify's 60million and it (Spotify) is the most popular service in the world (by a massive margin but Spotify is all MP3's) are there going to be tracks that are "missing" sure... but true of both catalogues. (Qobuz is down at 50Million)
I can't comment HD Tracks, (I would call them a download site vs a streaming service) But I would imagine they have a mix of CD, and "HD" Streaming services have changed a lot in the last 5-6 years ( and will keep changing, its a bit of the wild west atm) and every week they all the services add more content (song, albums)

Now do most people not care about the quality? ... sadly probably accurate, just look at the number of people with crappy headphones or listening to the speaker in their phone... sigh... But I think lack of knowledge probably the reason, or at least lack of exposure. Fortunately every year it gets easier, and easier...

 

[RVance]

Sorry.. Going to disagree again, Tidal has 10million more tracks than Spotify's 60million and it (Spotify) is the most popular service in the world (by a massive margin but Spotify is all MP3's) are there going to be tracks that are "missing" sure... but true of both catalogues. (Qobuz is down at 50Million)
I can't comment HD Tracks, (I would call them a download site vs a streaming service) But I would imagine they have a mix of CD, and "HD" Streaming services have changed a lot in the last 5-6 years ( and will keep changing, its a bit of the wild west atm) and every week they all the services add more content (song, albums)

Now do most people not care about the quality? ... sadly probably accurate, just look at the number of people with crappy headphones or listening to the speaker in their phone... sigh... But I think lack of knowledge probably the reason, or at least lack of exposure. Fortunately every year it gets easier, and easier...

From Dr. Mark Waldrep, who knows a little about recording Hi-res DVD-Audio and Blu-ray music:

"However, Amazon has not been honest about what fidelity they stream and I doubt they will start any time soon. In business and politics it’s all about perception. I guess because they are one of the two 800-pound gorillas in the streaming music marketplace, they feel they can move the goal posts in defining HD music and create a new category called Ultra HD. They claim they offer “unlimited access to 60 million songs in HD.” That’s a lie — unless you buy into Amazon’s reshuffling of the official hi-res audio lexicon and accept that Red Book CDs are HD. After more than a decade of arguing about what is and what isn’t hi-res audio, industry organizations, major labels, and hardware companies established Red Book CDs as “standard-resolution” and designated anything higher as hi-res.

What were previously hi-res are now Ultra HD in Amazon’s world. The claims of offering the “best quality recording available” rings hollow. All of the music we hear streamed through TIDAL, Pandora, Qobuz, Deezer, Apple Music, or Amazon Music HD originate from the same substandard tape transfers done at the label’s mastering studios by staff engineers. And most of the time the actual masters aren’t the one being transferred. The labels could purchase state-of-the-art, precisely calibrated Studer analog tape decks to do their transfers or pay for proper analog to digital files using these machines in conjunction with the best ADCs but they choose not to because of cost. After all, who’s going to notice? Leave it to the marketers and organizations like the CTA and NARAS to promote things like “as the artists intended.”

 

[stoopid]

From Dr. Mark Waldrep, who knows a little about recording Hi-res DVD-Audio and Blu-ray music:

"... unless you buy into Amazon’s reshuffling of the official hi-res audio lexicon and accept that Red Book CDs are HD. After more than a decade of arguing about what is and what isn’t hi-res audio, industry organizations, major labels, and hardware companies established Red Book CDs as “standard-resolution” and designated anything higher as hi-res.

What were previously hi-res are now Ultra HD in Amazon’s world...”

This is another big issue, when players in a market redefine things to fit their needs. HD Tracks that I mentioned earlier was playing this game. I think pushback from customers like me forced them into being more transparent in their online descriptions of the downloads. I haven't bothered with their service in quite a while as most everything I want is either still being pressed to compact disc or released in some sort of physical high res/5.1 release that I can afford. They may be labeling things correctly now, and that would be my fault for not checking back before engaging in an internet discussion. But... didn't care enough. lol

The use of HD here is obviously a relative use of the term - HD compared to typical, sucky streaming quality. I've been speaking literally in terms of industry accepted "high definition" audio (20+bit, 48+khz), of which there is a relatively very small amount available compared to all the music recordings ever published.

 

[stoopid]

Sorry.. Going to disagree again, Tidal has 10million more tracks than Spotify's 60million and it (Spotify) is the most popular service in the world (by a massive margin but Spotify is all MP3's) are there going to be tracks that are "missing" sure... but true of both catalogues. (Qobuz is down at 50Million)
I can't comment HD Tracks, (I would call them a download site vs a streaming service) But I would imagine they have a mix of CD, and "HD" Streaming services have changed a lot in the last 5-6 years ( and will keep changing, its a bit of the wild west atm) and every week they all the services add more content (song, albums)

I was speaking of the actual HD content, all other things being equal it would be the HD content that would differentiate since the remainder of the catalog would be standard definition like everyone else's versions. Reading my reply it was clear as mud. I think the overarching point though was clear - (actual) HD content for in car streaming isn't a reason for this, that, or the other. Never will be. [see my post(s) from the prior page]

 

[RedCal]

Agreed, there is going to be less HD content than non HD, but on most "HD" providers, you are at least getting CD quality, where as Apple, Spotify, etc, you are stuck with MP3's (of varying quality) Audio streaming is like video streaming... 10 years ago you wouldn't have thought it possible to stream 4K netflix... now common, audio isn't going backwards either, MP3's had their day when data rates were low. Gigabit to your phone is around the corner. (or already here depending on where you live)

There are no doubt "liers" out there... Amazon doesn't do better that 24/96, and not very often... Sonos claims that their players do Hires, but never does better than 24/48... so not even close... yet they make it seem like a great achievement.

FYI the industry standard is that HiRes is anything 24/96 or better... and you get a pretty logo (ok not so pretty) (left for hardware, right for content)
still gets abused by marketers who will put the logo on wired headphones...

 

[RVance]

Agreed, there is going to be less HD content than non HD, but on most "HD" providers, you are at least getting CD quality, where as Apple, Spotify, etc, you are stuck with MP3's (of varying quality) Audio streaming is like video streaming... 10 years ago you wouldn't have thought it possible to stream 4K netflix... now common, audio isn't going backwards either, MP3's had their day when data rates were low. Gigabit to your phone is around the corner. (or already here depending on where you live)

There are no doubt "liers" out there... Amazon doesn't do better that 24/96, and not very often... Sonos claims that their players do Hires, but never does better than 24/48... so not even close... yet they make it seem like a great achievement.

FYI the industry standard is that HiRes is anything 24/96 or better... and you get a pretty logo (ok not so pretty) (left for hardware, right for content)
still gets abused by marketers who will put the logo on wired headphones...
View attachment 55123

And what are "Hi Res" labels doing on hardware, even turntables? It's supposed to describe the audio. Just shows how deceptive audio marketing is.

 

[RedCal]

And what are "Hi Res" labels doing on hardware, even turntables? It's supposed to describe the audio. Just shows how deceptive audio marketing is.

.... Just shows how deceptive marketing is...

Fixed it for you

 

[RVance]

.... Just shows how deceptive marketing is...

Fixed it for you

The Hi-Res Whopper...

 

[stoopid]

The Hi-Res Whopper...

I prefer my whopper EQ'd. It's all about the bottom.

 

[andrew tay]

OK I just improved my sound system further. I found some helpful ideas for those who are interested.

1) the factory sound processor set the bass and treble up. So to 'de-equalise' the factory tune, set the bass to -10 and Treble to -5.

2) build in amplifier is class D. So for it to work properly with other it need to have a 'dummy speaker load' before you feed it to another amplifier. You will find significant improvement in distortion.

Audison calls it Universal Speaker Simulator: USS 4 | Audison - car audio processors, amplifiers and speakers

Audiocontrol calls it Load Generating Device: AC LGD's: Do your line converters put a resistor load on the speaker outputs of my factory amp? | AudioControl

Focal hi Lo V3 has a dummy load build-in. I used one for subwoofer channel and it works really well. Noticeable improvement. Focal HILO.V3 - Stereo Amplified Signal Converter. Note that V1 and V2 do not have that feature built in.

I also used cheap 10w27ohm ceramic resistors for the other 9 channels and it works just as well.

3) Digital signal processor (DSP) helps. I used a 4 channel Audison Bitten for the 4 mid-range and tweeter pairs. I tune it with an Andriod app call Audio Tools with a calibrated iMM-6 microphone from Dayton Audio.

This is my current upgraded setup.


This is the sound frequency sweep that I got from this with Bass set to -10 and Treble set to -5'



Hope that helps

 

[mfenske]

@andrew tay am I correct to understand that you're using/processing all the channels? I'm about to start on my install and I'm thinking of using the Audio Control LC8 to process the front door channels, center, and subwoofers-would you still suggest the dummy loads? Are those wired in series on one of the speaker wires or in parallel across both leads?

 

[Aarvix]

I think he's using high-level signals off the factory amp to provide inputs for his fancy amps (which drive the speakers).

Since the factory amp no longer sees a load from the speaker, it freaks out or doesn't work unless there's a dummy load to fool it into thinking there's a speaker attached.

 

[RVance]

OK I just improved my sound system further. I found some helpful ideas for those who are interested.

1) the factory sound processor set the bass and treble up. So to 'de-equalise' the factory tune, set the bass to -10 and Treble to -5.

2) build in amplifier is class D. So for it to work properly with other it need to have a 'dummy speaker load' before you feed it to another amplifier. You will find significant improvement in distortion.

Audison calls it Universal Speaker Simulator: USS 4 | Audison - car audio processors, amplifiers and speakers

Audiocontrol calls it Load Generating Device: AC LGD's: Do your line converters put a resistor load on the speaker outputs of my factory amp? | AudioControl

Focal hi Lo V3 has a dummy load build-in. I used one for subwoofer channel and it works really well. Noticeable improvement. Focal HILO.V3 - Stereo Amplified Signal Converter. Note that V1 and V2 do not have that feature built in.

I also used cheap 10w27ohm ceramic resistors for the other 9 channels and it works just as well.

3) Digital signal processor (DSP) helps. I used a 4 channel Audison Bitten for the 4 mid-range and tweeter pairs. I tune it with an Andriod app call Audio Tools with a calibrated iMM-6 microphone from Dayton Audio.

This is my current upgraded setup.
View attachment 55430

This is the sound frequency sweep that I got from this with Bass set to -10 and Treble set to -5'

View attachment 55431

Hope that helps

That's not stock.

 

[stoopid]

That's not cheap.

Fixed!

 

[andrew tay]

I think he's using high-level signals off the factory amp to provide inputs for his fancy amps (which drive the speakers).

Since the factory amp no longer sees a load from the speaker, it freaks out or doesn't work unless there's a dummy load to fool it into thinking there's a speaker attached.

Correct

 

[andrew tay]

@andrew tay am I correct to understand that you're using/processing all the channels? I'm about to start on my install and I'm thinking of using the Audio Control LC8 to process the front door channels, center, and subwoofers-would you still suggest the dummy loads? Are those wired in series on one of the speaker wires or in parallel across both leads?

Parallel.

 

[andrew tay]

@andrew tay am I correct to understand that you're using/processing all the channels? I'm about to start on my install and I'm thinking of using the Audio Control LC8 to process the front door channels, center, and subwoofers-would you still suggest the dummy loads? Are those wired in series on one of the speaker wires or in parallel across both leads?

Probably cheaper to get a Audison ap 8.9, 8 channel amp with DSP built in. I think these is a cheaper Pioneer option as well.