AWD or RWD

[Ruturaj]

Why is Kia adding a drift mode to the GTS model coming out?

I don't think as RWD or AWD as superior, they both have pros and cons. But would like to answer your question with a question, if RWD was good enough why did they develop a new system with AWD?

I think they wanted to build a system, that will offer benefits of both.

 

[Helo58]

With all this talk about how superior AWD is I have a question. Why is Kia adding a drift mode to the GTS model coming out? Sounds like there is no need or want since AWD is so beneficial. I guess I live in Bizaroworld as us neanderthals in DFW texas seem to prefer RWD in our performance cars.

A staff member I manage tracks his FRS and we were discussing this yesterday. He said outside of the WRX type vehicles nobody really wants and vehicles for the track. He is real in tune with this crowd, he is a sports car purist freak.

I think both have their place. Personally, like you, I chose RWD for my day to day driving and it is a direct result of "feel." I also agree that most purists want RWD. However, I think we are in a rapidly changing era. An era in which horsepower levels are rising at crazy rates and automotive control systems are able to process and control more. All of the things used to justify AWD or RWD previously are being turned upside down now when speaking of this as it relates to automotive technology in general. When speaking of the Stinger specifically, the discussion is much less complicated. AWD is simply a means to put down more horsepower in a straight line. It will not, and does not, help in cornering in any way unless the AWD system is "smart" and capable or torque vectoring (which ours is not). The AWD will perform better in a straight line at higher horsepower levels and the RWD will perform better in curvy lines with all other things being equal.

 

[itguy61]

Please enlighten me, in which post in this thread have I stated that AWD is good enough for everyone's needs? I have stated my preference and my opinion as to why some people buy AWD vehicles (climate and weather). There is no one size fits all solution and I have not stated that there is.

 

[itguy61]

I think both have their place. Personally, like you, I chose RWD for my day to day driving and it is a direct result of "feel." I also agree that most purists want RWD. However, I think we are in a rapidly changing era. An era in which horsepower levels are rising at crazy rates and automotive control systems are able to process and control more. All of the things used to justify AWD or RWD previously are being turned upside down now when speaking of this as it relates to automotive technology in general. When speaking of the Stinger specifically, the discussion is much less complicated. AWD is simply a means to put down more horsepower in a straight line. It will not, and does not, help in cornering in any way unless the AWD system is "smart" and capable or torque vectoring (which ours is not). The AWD will perform better in a straight line at higher horsepower levels and the RWD will perform better in curvy lines with all other things being equal.

FW

I agree with you on everything getting turned around, at least in the performance oriented car market. The mass market is and has been mainly FWD cars.

 

[Manaz]

AWD is simply a means to put down more horsepower in a straight line. It will not, and does not, help in cornering in any way unless the AWD system is "smart" and capable or torque vectoring (which ours is not).

This is incorrect. It absolutely helps in situations where grip levels are compromised (wet weather, ice/snow, dirt/gravel, grass, etc), because it allows for more absolute power to be delivered to the ground because it spreads it across more driven wheels.

Let's take a hypothetical situation, where, all other things being equal, each wheel can put 30kW to the ground before traction is lost (whether it's in a straight line or a curve isn't actually important here).

In a RWD car, the most power you could apply is 60kW, but in an AWD car, its 120kW.

In real life, the maths isn't that simple - you need to start taking longitudinal vs lateral grip into account, how each impacts the other (particularly where a wheel is asked to steer and apply power at the same time, and the associated accelerative forces involved, weight balance front to rear, weight transfer front to rear as well as side to side, etc, etc), but the overall effect is the same - in any situation where grip can be exceeded by power levels, more driven wheels is better.

Of course, if you have insufficient power to break traction (be that due to low power or high traction), the benefits in this area are not applicable. And if you're not accelerating (So if you're coasting through a corner), AWD (by and large) doesn't help at all.

Incidently, once you HAVE lost grip, you're just a passenger until you regain grip again (this is why locking up your brakes is bad, and what ABS works to prevent, let's discuss that another time) - and that's actually more likely if you do have AWD if you're applying power.

 

[Manaz]

The mass market is and has been mainly FWD cars.

This is almost exclusively for simplicity/cost/packaging/economy reasons. Handing, particularly at/beyond the limits, is practically never a reason to pick FWD over AWD or RWD.

 

[Helo58]

This is incorrect. It absolutely helps in situations where grip levels are compromised (wet weather, ice/snow, dirt/gravel, grass, etc), because it allows for more absolute power to be delivered to the ground because it spreads it across more driven wheels.

Let's take a hypothetical situation, where, all other things being equal, each wheel can put 30kW to the ground before traction is lost (whether it's in a straight line or a curve isn't actually important here).

In a RWD car, the most power you could apply is 60kW, but in an AWD car, its 120kW.

In real life, the maths isn't that simple - you need to start taking longitudinal vs lateral grip into account, how each impacts the other (particularly where a wheel is asked to steer and apply power at the same time, and the associated accelerative forces involved, weight balance front to rear, weight transfer front to rear as well as side to side, etc, etc), but the overall effect is the same - in any situation where grip can be exceeded by power levels, more driven wheels is better.

Of course, if you have insufficient power to break traction (be that due to low power or high traction), the benefits in this area are not applicable. And if you're not accelerating (So if you're coasting through a corner), AWD (by and large) doesn't help at all.

Incidently, once you HAVE lost grip, you're just a passenger until you regain grip again (this is why locking up your brakes is bad, and what ABS works to prevent, let's discuss that another time) - and that's actually more likely if you do have AWD if you're applying power.

My comments were made specifically in terms of performance driving on dry pavement as this is where most Stinger drivers will explore the limits of the car. My apologies for not stating that specifically. The AWD advantage in snow, slush, etc. is obvious and acknowledged, but I don't think that hypotheticals in that regard will get us very far in this case.

There seems to be a gap between statements regarding generalities of all cars and statements specifically regarding the Stinger. However, if I were to offer a hypothetical example myself, then I would suggest that "at/past the limit" handling is also a time where grip levels are compromised. It has been shown with the Stinger specifically that the AWD counterpart to the RWD in stock form is not faster around a track due to the weight/balance of the car and the tendency to understeer. Is it your contention that the AWD Stinger should be the faster of two around a track?

 

[itguy61]

I think it comes down to priorities, at least in areas that don't suffer from very much compromise due to slick weather conditions. Absolute traction/ stability vs. Playful/less traction easier to break traction.

 

[turboAWD]

For me, I MIGHT hit the track. I've been to auto-x once, and will go again. In both those situations, AWD is probably a drawback. But, I'll never be the guy going 9/10ths+ at the track.

In day-to-day, even here in NorCal (never snow on the ground), our roads are horrible, with lots of dust / potholes. Plus, we had a really rainy winter. In those situations, launching under power is impossible with FWD / RWD. Even someone on here in San Jose said "with RWD, I just spin". Not a big fan of wheelspin.

Plus, with the brake-pedal mod, we're now slipping with AWD launches..

 

[Jimmer]

AWD has nothing to do with handling in bad weather. It's a better solution for delivering power on performance cars. People don't buy the Audi R8 to drive in snow.

.

Um, I bought AWD solely for handling better in bad weather...so it is at least THE reason for some.

 

[Jimmer]

Both AWD or RWD are good choices, but if you do choose AWD be sure to get the 19 inch wheels with high performance tires. Not only does it raise the top speed to 167 MPH and makes the car handle much better, but it also visually looks alot better since the rear tires are wider than the 18 inch all season tires. I still have no idea why Kia puts the 18 inch all season tires on most of the GT AWD models.

My GT2 AWD came with the summer staggered 19s

 

[MisterMac]

My GT2 AWD came with the summer staggered 19s

So did mine

 

[Kamauxx]

AWD has nothing to do with handling in bad weather. It's a better solution for delivering power on performance cars. People don't buy the Audi R8 to drive in snow.

Do people buy Jeep Wranglers to for track days?

 

[MisterMac]

Do people buy Jeep Wranglers to for track days?

Just to rescue to RWD cars who lose control and spin out into the muddy infield!

 

[Manaz]

Is it your contention that the AWD Stinger should be the faster of two around a track?

The answer to that is "It depends".

Different tracks favour different cars for different reasons - an AWD vehicle may well be faster around a track where the RWD car needs to back off to maintain grip for a significant amount of time, and can't press it's weight advantage (a tight, twisty track for instance). I believe AWDs are topping the quarter mile standings too at present only 4 of the top 10 are RWD, and the best one is in third place), and I believe they will extend that lead as the launching capabilities are further explored after recent developments that allow spooling of the turbos for a launch).

To use tracks I am familiar with as an example - Eastern Creek North Circuit is a power track, with top speeds down the main straight easily exceeding 200km/h, speeds up to 180km/h attainable by some cars between turns 1 and 2, and a decent back straight as well - I've no doubt that a RWD Stinger would have the advantage here.

South Circuit at the same place, would be much closer - the straights are shorter, and the track itself is shorter and has more corners.

Go to a track like Marulan, Wakefield or Luddenham, and they're shorter, tighter and more technical circuits, and I'd expect the AWD to close the gap if not take over.

 

[Manaz]

Eastern Creek North Circuit, 2.8kms:

Eastern Creek South Circuit, 1.8km:

Marulan, 900m:

Wakefield Park, 2.2km:

Luddenham, 1.4km:

 

[Devin]

This is a good discussion. I've been putting a lot of thought into which I'd rather have up here in the Northwest, and I like to see all of the differing opinions.

 

[Helo58]

The answer to that is "It depends".

Different tracks favour different cars for different reasons - an AWD vehicle may well be faster around a track where the RWD car needs to back off to maintain grip for a significant amount of time, and can't press it's weight advantage (a tight, twisty track for instance). I believe AWDs are topping the quarter mile standings too at present only 4 of the top 10 are RWD, and the best one is in third place), and I believe they will extend that lead as the launching capabilities are further explored after recent developments that allow spooling of the turbos for a launch).

To use tracks I am familiar with as an example - Eastern Creek North Circuit is a power track, with top speeds down the main straight easily exceeding 200km/h, speeds up to 180km/h attainable by some cars between turns 1 and 2, and a decent back straight as well - I've no doubt that a RWD Stinger would have the advantage here.

South Circuit at the same place, would be much closer - the straights are shorter, and the track itself is shorter and has more corners.

Go to a track like Marulan, Wakefield or Luddenham, and they're shorter, tighter and more technical circuits, and I'd expect the AWD to close the gap if not take over.

I agree that most of this discussion will be track dependent. Not necessarily due to "open" or "technical" considerations though. The ideal racing line for AWD will differ significantly from RWD. The AWD will have a much later apex and be earlier back on throttle after the apex in a "point and shoot" fashion and the RWD will have roughly even or steady state cornering pre and post apex in which more momentum is maintained throughout the corner. The goal of the AWD car would be to make the turn event as short as possible and then maximize linear acceleration while the RWD would seek to maintain momentum at the limit of traction throughout. So the AWD will be slow in, fast out and the RWD will be medium in and medium out. I think that how the corners are successively put together is going to be what really determines who has the advantage. My "local" track of choice is the VIR full course. This course doesn't seem to favor a particular layout, all other things being equal.

There is a reason I said around a track (), but here are my thoughts on the Stinger "drags." In linear acceleration, yes, AWD is going to be the obvious choice. However, the advantage may not be as large as it seems once you take into account rear weight transfer during launches and the torque split. The advantage shrinks. Many RWD cars will be able to compensate for increased power levels by increasing rear tire width and changing compounds. But I will concede that for most, the AWD is going to be the simpler and easier way to obtain traction with power.

By the way, LOVE Australia! I have been to Townsville, Brisbane, Oakey, Woomera, and Adelaide. I have nothing but great memories of my trips there. With all of that land, why are you blokes driving cars on karting tracks?!

 

[itguy61]

Help how does LSD on RWD affect acceleration vs. no LSD on AWD? It seems to me that AWD is faster if you are dealing with a car with enough power to spin the rear tires and lose traction. If the car does not have enough power to spin out the rear tires I would think the RWD car will slightly faster acceleration due to weight increase in the AWD car. I have been accused in this post of stating that AWD is inferior, it is not, just different.

Steering feel was a big deal to me so the RWD won out, the AWD car I drove had noticeably number steering feel. After my totally disappoint BMW F series 328i I was sensitive to wanting more steering feel.

 

[Stinger Girl]

I think both have their place. Personally, like you, I chose RWD for my day to day driving and it is a direct result of "feel." I also agree that most purists want RWD. However, I think we are in a rapidly changing era. An era in which horsepower levels are rising at crazy rates and automotive control systems are able to process and control more. All of the things used to justify AWD or RWD previously are being turned upside down now when speaking of this as it relates to automotive technology in general. When speaking of the Stinger specifically, the discussion is much less complicated. AWD is simply a means to put down more horsepower in a straight line. It will not, and does not, help in cornering in any way unless the AWD system is "smart" and capable or torque vectoring (which ours is not). The AWD will perform better in a straight line at higher horsepower levels and the RWD will perform better in curvy lines with all other things being equal.

Huh? I thought "Dynamic Torque Vectoring Control" was part of the AWD package?

Otherwise I totally agree on the cornering. Even in Sport mode when cornering I feel like the car is...I can't find the right word - loose, sloppy, boat like? Like it's not sticking to the ground as a whole. To be clear my expectations are compared to my former Mustang Bullitt which was RWD and a different, what felt like, much tighter suspension.

It's a disappointment for me considering one of my favorite things about owning a performance vehicle is driving Western NC and Tennessee twisties. My gut level feeling is the Tail of the Dragon is going to go from thrill to teeth clenching because I don't trust the car :/