AWD or RWD

[westcoastGT]

Merlin, if that was a big issue you would see more AWD cars on lots down here. DFW is a large metro area and it is very hard to find AWD stingers at any of the dealers. Rain I agree with but not crosswinds. This car is pretty low to the ground and I have never felt any instability from wind. The fun to drive factor is probably why the GTS model will have a 2wd drift mode. The big reason people down here get AWD is for off road capability. The ROI is just not there for AWD and weather issues down here. I love being able to hit the gas in a corner and have the power break the real wheel free and pop around the corner. You try to do that it AWD and the front wheels start getting ore power applied to them and the rear doesn't break free as much.

How many Audis do you see on the road there ??

 

[itguy61]

Actually, 4x4 and AWD sell very well no matter what part of the country they are for sale in. These are the number one and two features for retaining the highest percentage of the original manufacturer markup upon resale. Even in Texas.

I have a good friend who is the GSM of a Kia dealership here and he states they have trouble selling Kias with AWD in DFW. You can do an inventory search and there are very few AWD new Kias for sale in Texas. Car dealers and manufacturers like to make money and if AWD Kias were in demand you can bet your britches more of them would be showing up on dealer lots down here. 4x4 trucks, not that is a totally different story. What you are saying is correct when talking about Jeeps, Fords, Chevy's Rams and Toyotas if they are pickups and SUV's.

Did a search within 250 miles and there were only 12 AWD Stingers listed out of 174 cars.

 

[itguy61]

How many Audis do you see on the road there ??

Many more than stingers, a large number of Audis are Quattros. Audi and Subaru sell a lot of AWD cars. Outside of those two brands there are very few AWD cars (not trucks or SUVs) sold down here. You can search for them, they are not common down here. I have a friend who sells BMW's in the Dallas area and he says AWD cars are not popular with the performance car crowd. The X-drive cars have the reputation of not handling as well as the RWD cars. You guys can argue all you want but there just are not that many AWD passenger cars for sales around here.

Go to any track event and RWD cars are king. The most popular track cars are all RWD. As far as sports car purists are concerned front engine with RWD is king.

 

[westcoastGT]

Many more than stingers, a large number of Audis are Quattros. Audi and Subaru sell a lot of AWD cars. Outside of those two brands there are very few AWD cars (not trucks or SUVs) sold down here. You can search for them, they are not common down here. I have a friend who sells BMW's in the Dallas area and he says AWD cars are not popular with the performance car crowd. The X-drive cars have the reputation of not handling as well as the RWD cars. You guys can argue all you want but there just are not that many AWD passenger cars for sales around here.

I'm not arguing about anything , I just know that companies like Porsche and Audi arent pushing AWD as a Safety feature for snowy climes , they are pushing driving dynamics .RWD cars are less expensive , weigh less and are predominantly what most North Americans are familiar with or learned on ................its just a process of learning and accepting that for most driving environments AWD provides a complelling experience

 

[itguy61]

I'm not arguing about anything , I just know that companies like Porsche and Audi arent pushing AWD as a Safety feature for snowy climes , they are pushing driving dynamics .RWD cars are less expensive , weigh less and are predominantly what most North Americans are familiar with or learned on ................its just a process of learning and accepting that for most driving environments AWD provides a complelling experience

I agree on Porsche but Audi is mostly bought by the image crowd. I am not talking about the rare RS models, but the big selling models. Audis drive numb and are not that revered in the sports car and track crowd. Lots of high end sports cars are using AWD, GTR and 911 for example. Name any sub 100k performance oriented car that AWD is that popular on? Not that many. AWD is king when traction is limited but not so with performance purists outside of expensive exotic type cars. Every AWD car I have driven has understeer and that is not what most enthusiasts want. Most want to be able to induce oversteer by hitting the throttle and breaking the rear end loose. The only affordable awd performance cars I see around here are Subaru WRX type cars. Way to rough and crude for me. I need comfort now.

 

[MisterMac]

I have a good friend who is the GSM of a Kia dealership here and he states they have trouble selling Kias with AWD in DFW. You can do an inventory search and there are very few AWD new Kias for sale in Texas. Car dealers and manufacturers like to make money and if AWD Kias were in demand you can bet your britches more of them would be showing up on dealer lots down here. 4x4 trucks, not that is a totally different story. What you are saying is correct when talking about Jeeps, Fords, Chevy's Rams and Toyotas if they are pickups and SUV's.

Did a search within 250 miles and there were only 12 AWD Stingers listed out of 174 cars.

Lol, those are your sources on which you base your opinions and then state them as fact for the entire southern USA? Seriously?

I'll encourage you to expand your scope of research.

 

[itguy61]

Lol, those are your sources on which you base your opinions and then state them as fact for the entire southern USA? Seriously?

I'll encourage you to expand your scope of research.

I am not talking about the whole southern USA. If you would actually read my post you would see that I did a search of Stingers within a 250 mile radius. The results I got are not my opinion, I don't run cars.com. You are arguing with me stating that AWD cars are popular around here and you cannot back that up, the damn dealers don't have hardly any for sale. Outside of Audi's and Subarus AWD passenger cars are not easy to find in Texas. My opinion has nothing to do with this. My friends in the car business are stating their option but I suspect that is influenced by demand they see. Mistermac, which passenger car outside of Subaru and Audi is common on dealers lots in Texas? Just wondering.

Which Texas Kia dealer has a selection of AWD stingers?

 

[MisterMac]

I am not talking about the whole southern USA. If you would actually read my post you would see that I did a search of Stingers within a 250 mile radius. The results I got are not my opinion, I don't run cars.com. You are arguing with me stating that AWD cars are popular around here and you cannot back that up, the damn dealers don't have hardly any for sale. Outside of Audi's and Subarus AWD passenger cars are not easy to find in Texas. My opinion has nothing to do with this. My friends in the car business are stating their option but I suspect that is influenced by demand they see. Mistermac, which passenger car outside of Subaru and Audi is common on dealers lots in Texas? Just wondering.

The real question you need to ask is what is the makeup of registered vehicles in Texas, and why tge proportion of AWD is much higher than what is on actively for sale.

The next question you want to ask is why there are so few new AWD Stingers on lots. You'll then find out that Kia sends the majority of them to those states north of the Mason Dixon line, but those that do hit the lots in the south sell quickly. You'll then want to ask why those who purchased AWD cars of any brand hold onto them nearly twice as long as RWD, on average. These brands include Audi, BMW, Mercefes, Porsche, Cadillac, etc.

 

[Manaz]

Merlin, if that was a big issue you would see more AWD cars on lots down here. DFW is a large metro area and it is very hard to find AWD stingers at any of the dealers. Rain I agree with but not crosswinds. This car is pretty low to the ground and I have never felt any instability from wind. The fun to drive factor is probably why the GTS model will have a 2wd drift mode. The big reason people down here get AWD is for off road capability. The ROI is just not there for AWD and weather issues down here. I love being able to hit the gas in a corner and have the power break the real wheel free and pop around the corner. You try to do that it AWD and the front wheels start getting ore power applied to them and the rear doesn't break free as much.

AWD isn't for off-road - that's 4x4 or Four Wheel Drive, with transfer cases and lockable hubs and diffs and stuff.

I can *easily* break traction in my Subies (check my sig for details). It's not the same as RWD, but I wouldn't say it's any less fun - it's just different. In terms of AWD in the rain - the Mitsubishi Challenger I also own is much more controllable in the wet when I put it into 4WD mode rather than the RWD mode we drive in when it's dry. Yes, we go off-road in it, and we use it to tow - but the fact is, in the wet, the ~130kW and ~400Nm is much more controllable split between four wheels than two.

 

[itguy61]

I have a challenge for you. Show me some statistics or even name one passenger car that is AWD and is common in Texas. Outside of Subaru and Audi I cannot think of any. Do you know something I don't know? What registration statistics are you referring to? I would bet a large sum of money 90% of AWD vehicles sold in Texas are trucks and Suv type vehicles. Outside of Audi in your list I see way more RWD models than AWD models. AWD Porsches are very expensive, you don't see a large number. Most Mercedes are C and E class and I hardly ever see AWD models. mostly leases. Same for BMW, they sell some X-drives but they are the minority. Cadillac doesn't sell that much of anything. You keep talking about retention and resale values and not citing any sources, what is your source? I see you bought an AWD and it works for you but claiming that AWD passenger cars are so popular in Texas is just not true. Come to Fort Worth and we can both go sit on I30 or I 35 for ten minutes and it will be obvious. I am not talking about the truck crowd.

Porsche Caymans and Boxters are not available with awd, only 911's and Panameras. No way X-drive BMW's are that common around here, they are around but not nearly as common as RWD. Audi Quatrros are around. You can search new and used inventories and outside of Audi's none of these brands cars are in a big selection the DFW.

It is so easy by searching new and used car inventories, there just aren't that many AWD performance and luxury cars for sale.

 

[itguy61]

Best selling passenger cars in America:
Nissan Sentra
Nissan Altima
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
toyota Corolla
Toyota Camry
Ford Fusion (awd sport no longer available)
Ford Focus. (RS only AWD version)
Hyundai Sonata
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Forte
Kia Optima

Which of these have AWD? These are all very high volume cars and except for one or two there is no AWD option available. These cars sell more cars per year by a long shot than all of the brands you listed above combined.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Rain I agree with but not crosswinds. This car is pretty low to the ground and I have never felt any instability from wind.

I was combining them; that didn't translate very clearly.

 

[nhcowboy28]

Is this the new “auto vs manual” debate/pissing contest??

Who flippin cares.

Just enjoy your vehicles gents and not worry about why some prefer RWD OR AWD.

 

[itguy61]

Yes this thread strayed from AWD or RWD which is better to talking about sales stats. There is not a best option for everyone. They are both great. But when Mistermac starts saying that in registrations of passenger cars that AWD is very popular he is just factually incorrect. No judgement, just statistics. Hell that list I posted above probably accounts for 75% of passenger car sales in the US and AWD is not available on most of them at all. Oh well, nothing more to say. just enjoy your cars.

 

[Helo58]

I've always heard that asking a tire to propel the car while it is steering the car or asking it to steer the car while it is propelling it will reduce the ability of the tire to do either simultaneously. Keeping steering and propulsion at opposite ends of the car is surely old-man speak. By now, the various AWD systems, torque vectoring, and stability control can surely turn this logic on its end now.

 

[Guardsred997]

As a fellow resident of DFW, I will back up itguy61. AWD isn’t a primary selling point for cars in the metroplex. Sure, with an area population of 6,000,000, you see lots of Subaru’s and Audi’s. I have lived here for 20 years, and have owned 1 Subaru WRX, 3 Subaru STI’s and 2 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution’s. In addition to those sport sedans, I have owned several other vehicles with AWD (mostly SUV’s). I love AWD, but I think I am in the minority for the DFW area. Most people here buy for image (Audi) and the rest for economy (tons of Altimas and Accords and Camrys). AWD and economy don’t really go hand in hand.

You see very few “niche” vehicles like the Stinger GT in Dallas/Fort Worth. Tons of pickups, econoboxes and SUV’s.

That being said, I bought a RWD Stinger GT because everything I read and watched said “go with the RWD” for steering feel. There is a video on YouTube produced by a Kia dealer in Colorado. They had a professional driver take the RWD and AWD Stinger GT’s around a track and the RWD was 6 seconds quicker. That is an eternity on the track. The driver kept commenting how much more mechanical grip the RWD car had.
I will say that I love AWD, but after owning a couple Lancer Evolutions, I didn’t think the Stinger GT AWD would be that impressive. The EVO made you look like Superman in the corners.

 

[Manaz]

I've always heard that asking a tire to propel the car while it is steering the car or asking it to steer the car while it is propelling it will reduce the ability of the tire to do either simultaneously. Keeping steering and propulsion at opposite ends of the car is surely old-man speak. By now, the various AWD systems, torque vectoring, and stability control can surely turn this logic on its end now.

AWD systems, torque vectoring, etc just act to mask the issue to varying degrees, but they don't remove it.

At the core of it is lateral vs linear acceleration - if you're applying both, the outcome of both is compromised.

 

[itguy61]

When I had my 2017 Sorento SX I tried to drive an AWD before I bought it. Nobody had them. All the dealers told me they were very rare in this area and not very many people asked for them. Fast forward to early this year and I got to actually drive an AWD stinger. Had to go all the way to Rockwall. I felt the car had more understeer and the steering did not have as much feel. Being that we get very little snow/ice and I don't drive in rain that much I could not justify the cost. Even the salesman out in Rockwall told me that if I wanted the most fun to get RWD. Again, if I lived where inclement weather was common I would be buying the AWD for the extra traction.

 

[Helo58]

AWD systems, torque vectoring, etc just act to mask the issue to varying degrees, but they don't remove it.

At the core of it is lateral vs linear acceleration - if you're applying both, the outcome of both is compromised.

This post isn't meant to be argumentative, but rather to clarify the ambiguity of my previous statement. I agree that the physics of lateral vs linear are indisputable and I agree with your post. However, with modern systems, I am inclined to believe that the rules have changed somewhat. Instead of relying only on separate "steer" and "drive" systems, we now can perform these tasks in other ways that overlap with traditional steer and drive systems.

I am sure you know this, so I say it only to make the point for those who don't, but with any drive system, (FWD, AWD, RWD), Dynamic/Active Torque Vectoring can help turn the car by using differential clutches to change the velocities of individual wheels and sides of the car. In a turn to the left, the ATV may overdrive the outside wheel and reduce the speed of the inside wheel to help the car turn to the left.

The Focus RS uses a system of this kind.
Dynamic Torque Vectoring Explained - Ford Focus RS

Here is a video from Toyota explaining the principle.

In addition to this, we have 4-wheel steering where the rear wheels turn slightly opposite the fronts in low speed maneuvers and with the fronts in high speed maneuvers. Both of these systems available now only as a result of technology in the form of sensors and processing capability, have turned traditional models of handling upside down.

These two features don't remove the physics of lateral vs linear acceleration or even mask them, but with respect to AWD and RWD, these new systems will allow an AWD car to handle on a level more equal (or superior) with its only RWD counterpart by changing the rules so to speak. I admit that applying these technologies to the RWD car would also improve it as well, so I guess there is no point to all of this other than proposing that an AWD with complimentary "systems" may not suffer all of the handicaps in the handling department that early AWD cars had.

 

[MisterMac]

I have a challenge for you. Show me some statistics or even name one passenger car that is AWD and is common in Texas. Outside of Subaru and Audi I cannot think of any. Do you know something I don't know? What registration statistics are you referring to? I would bet a large sum of money 90% of AWD vehicles sold in Texas are trucks and Suv type vehicles. Outside of Audi in your list I see way more RWD models than AWD models. AWD Porsches are very expensive, you don't see a large number. Most Mercedes are C and E class and I hardly ever see AWD models. mostly leases. Same for BMW, they sell some X-drives but they are the minority. Cadillac doesn't sell that much of anything. You keep talking about retention and resale values and not citing any sources, what is your source? I see you bought an AWD and it works for you but claiming that AWD passenger cars are so popular in Texas is just not true. Come to Fort Worth and we can both go sit on I30 or I 35 for ten minutes and it will be obvious. I am not talking about the truck crowd.

Porsche Caymans and Boxters are not available with awd, only 911's and Panameras. No way X-drive BMW's are that common around here, they are around but not nearly as common as RWD. Audi Quatrros are around. You can search new and used inventories and outside of Audi's none of these brands cars are in a big selection the DFW.

It is so easy by searching new and used car inventories, there just aren't that many AWD performance and luxury cars for sale.

@itguy61, you asserted that AWD cars do not sell very well in the south and then said your conclusion was based on your search of available cars within a 250 mile radius and what you GSM friend said. You also asserted that AWD has no value outside of those areas with inclement weather. I suggested you expand your scope or research to support your assertions.

My source of reference is over 20 years of financing, and repossessing, automobiles in the states of Michigan, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico. Of over $3.0 Billion of autos financed, when we've analyzed the spread between recoveries of value by feature of a vehicle, AWD and 4x4 hold the most value at resale. Even 2018 Southwestern U.S. auction results between RWD and AWD Stinger GT's, the AWD are still selling wholesale for $1,700 more than equally equipped RWD's. The value is there and will remain.

AWD has value beyond what you've stated.

Sure, for those of us who occasionally love the exhilaration of punching it and sliding our rear ends all over the place, RWD is a thrill. Heck, I grew up in Michigan and never had anything but a RWD V8 underneath me. Doing donuts in the snow, gravel, or even on pure ice on Lake St. Claire was insanely fun. Emphasis on insane...

Personally, while my AWD Stinger was in the shop I had a RWD Stinger to drive for a couple weeks. The stupid tires on the RWD constantly broke loose and were downright unsafe in the rain. With my AWD, and granted it is tuned for more hp/tq and also puts in excess of 90% of power to the rear tires, never looses traction. I take curves and corners at much faster speeds even on dry payment than my RWD counterparts.

The AWD on this Stinger is unlike any AWD I've had out of 80 vehicles now. It is fun in all weather/terrain, and I know that the extra I paid up front will come back to me at trade-in or resale. If a buyer wants sure-footedness in all conditions, they should look into the AWD Stinger regardless of where they live or drive.

It rains like crazy in the DFW area. Next time you have storms in the forecast, I encourage you to test drive and AWD Stinger GT2 and compare the experience with your RWD. Just trying it, that's all.