Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[brancky3]

I look at the logs from two more 11 second passes from yesterday and am still happy with my choice of going ECU tune and that my tuner and the ECU knows what is going on.
View attachment 18263

"OMG look at that knock during shifts" - you and Tork, 3 months ago

 

[KLR STINGER]

I used the kiwi3 when tuning and testing my 730whp CLS 63. It's fast and reliable. The Mercedes PID support was pretty good on the torque pro app. Not sure how good in a for newer kia pids. I would never use one of those cheapy elm 327 adapters. This is Vitaly important data, and you want the best data you can get. I'm not sure I agree with the ECU is set and forget. If your tuner isnti logging while tuning out doesn't provide it to you, thats a problem.

 

[Tonkabob]

Let me point out that the X axis is skewed on JB4 log compared to the others.... both logs dip as much it’s just amplified on the JB4 log....

Can you explain more?

 

[Adamdan]

Looks like a cool product. Most ECU guys don't even need to log except for piece of mind. Set it and forget it. Since i am testing i do. The kiwi 3 is 4x faster vs 8x faster and is $89. But the 4 has sd card and accelerometer.
I've had 3 piggybacks and 3 ecu tunes for what its worth. Only blown a hole in my piston once.

How did you blow a hole in the piston? When I first got my jb4 I filled up with a bad tank of gas and got some pinging in 1st and 2nd gear. It was like the computer could not pull timing fast enough with those shorter gears to stop it. It was not very loud just a slight ticking sound here and there. I don’t think that would do any damage but I wanna see my piston tops to make sure.

 

[TwinSnails]

I used the kiwi3 when tuning and testing my 730whp CLS 63. It's fast and reliable. The Mercedes PID support was pretty good on the torque pro app. Not sure how good in a for newer kia pids. I would never use one of those cheapy elm 327 adapters. This is Vitaly important data, and you want the best data you can get. I'm not sure I agree with the ECU is set and forget. If your tuner isnti logging while tuning out doesn't provide it to you, thats a problem.

Any tune IMHO should never be set it and forget it. Even the stock tunes have issues, that’s why I’ve always done custom tunes.

You get the base tune, then you run 3-5 logs. The tuner takes the files, dials them in. Re-log 2-3 runs, send file... usually one more revision, log, send, and normally get the thumbs up with a heck of a tune. It’s even more imperative on trucks because of towing/EGT’s.

One truck ago I had invested ~$2,000 in tunes/programmer... but had 5 files to load from with revised shifts and all. And I monitored the tune every single day and logged it once a week. BMS is going to get closer to a set and forget with the auto tune feature on the board... outside of that - I would check my logs every time the highs for a day drop or rise ~20 degrees.

Can you explain more?

It’s the Y-axis sorry about that.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Exactly how I use it. It's honestly worth the cost just for logging if you're serious about monitoring and ensuring the safety of your tuning. I really wish the piggyback haters understood this.

That's just one small benefit. Being able to dynamically raise or lower boost based on fuel differences, weather differences, etc, is huge. Having a passive safety system looking at your logging data full time and abort a run for you if things get out of hand is also huge. Not to mention user adjustable boost by gear for RWD cars. These guys will see the light sooner or later.

 

[Tonkabob]

How did you blow a hole in the piston? When I first got my jb4 I filled up with a bad tank of gas and got some pinging in 1st and 2nd gear. It was like the computer could not pull timing fast enough with those shorter gears to stop it. It was not very loud just a slight ticking sound here and there. I don’t think that would do any damage but I wanna see my piston tops to make sure.

It was a long time ago with a Unichip on my SC MR2. Bad tune i guess, and ECUs weren't super smart back then. I was doing lapping and poof, tons of white smoke. Engine seized up and got her towed home. $5K later i had a rebuilt motor and a souvenir piston with a quarter sized whole in it. I never heard the knock.

It’s the Y-axis sorry about that.

Ok makes more sense. Looks like the throttle is adjusted from the 95 point scale to 50.

"OMG look at that knock during shifts" - you and Tork, 3 months ago

That is ridicules and untrue but gets you some fan boy points. I guess running 11s on every run with smooth timing, boost and throttle makes me a target. I'm going to go hang out with Get Stung.

 

[Terry@BMS]

That is ridicules and untrue but gets you some fan boy points. I guess running 11s on every run with smooth timing, boost and throttle makes me a target. I'm going to go hang out with Get Stung.

You're only monitoring 1 cylinder out of 6, so you can't tell how well its running or not with your current logging tools.

 

[brancky3]

That is ridicules and untrue but gets you some fan boy points. I guess running 11s on every run with smooth timing, boost and throttle makes me a target. I'm going to go hang out with Get Stung.

You're right, it's untrue because it happened 4 days ago, not 3 months ago.

He is in LC correctly. He launches at 2250 and 2 PSI. The car takes a shit right at the 1-2 shift just before the 60 foot mark. Some knock and throttle pull on the 1-2 shift.

 

[Adamdan]

You're right, it's untrue because it happened 4 days ago, not 3 months ago.

That’s not knock right? I thought timing dips between shifts.

 

[brancky3]

That’s not knock right? I thought timing dips between shifts.

Yep, that was my point. 'People' have been trashing JB4 for 'knocking' between shifts for a long time now on this forum but it's just timing dipping between shifts as it is meant to do.

 

[Tonkabob]

You're right, it's untrue because it happened 4 days ago, not 3 months ago.

Sorry let me word more clearly. There is knock. There is timing pull on the shift. Wasn't trying to imply the knock was on the shift, that would be silly.
I've never heard anyone claim there is knock on shifts. We do talk about timing pull on shifts which is totally normal and we talk about throttle cut on shifts which is not normal for a stock car.

 

[Tonkabob]

That’s not knock right? I thought timing dips between shifts.

There is knock correction in the log we are referring to but not on shifts. Correction was in the higher gears. I initially incorrectly thought one example of timing pull was in the middle of 1st gear but the timing was still falling as the throttle was still opening. Didn't reach full throttle until 20 mph.

 

[brancky3]

There is knock correction in the log we are referring to but not on shifts. Correction was in the higher gears. I initially incorrectly thought one example of timing pull was in the middle of 1st gear but the timing was still falling as the throttle was still opening. Didn't reach full throttle until 20 mph.

There's no knock in that log .

 

[Tonkabob]

There's no knock in that log .

But Terry agreed there was. You need to get in sync. He had some bad gas.

 

[Terry@BMS]

But Terry agreed there was. You need to get in sync. He had some bad gas.

You can't see it in the chart above but when looking at his CSV and cylinders 2-6, you see some random timing pull in some cylinders associated with lower grade fuel. It's not knock but it's an explanation for why it's running 2mph slower traps than other cars at the same boost level on 93 octane. Just goes to show how cylinder 1 only tells you part of the story. It's one thing to run like that at 14-15psi but anyone pushing the boundaries (16-17psi+) should be logging ALL cylinders. High boost tuning development for pump gas without that data is very difficult.

 

[Adamdan]

You can't see it in the chart above but when looking at his CSV and cylinders 2-6, you see some random timing pull in some cylinders associated with lower grade fuel. It's not knock but it's an explanation for why it's running 2mph slower traps than other cars at the same boost level on 93 octane. Just goes to show how cylinder 1 only tells you part of the story. It's one thing to run like that at 14-15psi but anyone pushing the boundaries (16-17psi+) should be logging ALL cylinders. High boost tuning development for pump gas without that data is very difficult.

So knock would look like a step down? This is a picture of a log I did of a run in map 3. Timing dips but does not keep going down. Also 4th gear pull.

 

[Terry@BMS]

A 3 degree drop is a timing correction. Multiple timing corrections in the same cylinder and gear that recover then drop again indicate your tuned too aggressively for the fuel quality. Lower the boost or increase the octane.

Repeated 3 degree drops in the same cylinder, such that timing looks like a downward stair case as engine speed is going up, indicates knock.

 

[Adamdan]

A 3 degree drop is a timing correction. Multiple timing corrections in the same cylinder and gear that recover then drop again indicate your tuned too aggressively for the fuel quality. Lower the boost or increase the octane.

Repeated 3 degree drops in the same cylinder, such that timing looks like a downward stair case as engine speed is going up, indicates knock.

Oh ok so like my pictures show what if some cylinders are always running lower timing then the others but it’s steady and does not drop more so that’s ok? It’s like it’s made a 3 degree timing correction after a shift but stays steady at that lower timing.

 

[Terry@BMS]

The chart looks fairly typical for a pump gas. If it's on map2 I'd leave it. If it's on map3 I'd probably drop down to map2.