Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Kamauxx]

When we have the ability to flash updates/custom maps and stock software at home then ECU tunes may take the edge for me

Egggxactly!

 

[Sales@Tork]

Besides peoples point of views on putting back your car back to stock, the biggest upside to the current ECU Tune vs Piggyback is easy of removal for me. I am working on getting my rotors replaced under warranty and with my JB4 it takes me 10 min to pop on and off to go back and forth to the dealers (4 times so far). With an ECU tune i would have to NDA the ECU to you and have you NDA it back everytime i need to go in. That is not feasible for me as this is my daily driver. While I would love an proper ECU tune its just not worth the risks for me at the moment. I understand they can be safer options, I understand Dealers cant technically void your warranty... but they will. I for one dont have the time or pocket lawyer to help me fight it.

For now its Piggybacks > ECU tune for that reason. Also, the similarities in HP, TQ, 1/4 times, Boost PSI etc for a quarter of the cost if not more is also very attractive.

When we have the ability to flash updates/custom maps and stock software at home then ECU tunes may take the edge for me, but until then I just cant see the real upside of $400-500 vs $1,800+ (spare ECU included in that price).

I do think there shouldn't be any additional upcharges for going for Stage 0 to 1 to 1.5 swell. Once you pay for a tune you should be able to get what ever flashed maps you have developed similar to piggybacks.

Again, I do hope I can get a proper ECU tune one day as I do see the benefits but at the moment I just cant see the real upside vs cost, risk taken, and ease of removal to stock.

Tork is doing great things and in time im sure they will have everything figured out and give us what we want. I will be a customer at that time!

I cannot argue with the price, nor the ease of removal. My intention for this post, is to educate on the differences between them, functional performance.

As far as there should be no additional costs for upgrading a tune... what would be my benefit to further the development then? Do you work for free? Because that is exactly what you are asking me to do.

Very few people understand what goes into tune development, so here is a quick run down.

$5k in software
$10k in hardware
$45k in testing equipment
$2k a month to store all of this.

Figure 40 to 60 hours for the first tune, at $125 an hour. $5k

Now, we had to purchase a car to do this testing with, so add $40k there.

I now have close to 250 hours into the ECU dissassembly, testing, installing parts, uninstalling parts, and testing said parts on the car, revusing the tune to work with said parts. All the time risking my warranty and possible catastrophic failure of my personal car.

250 hours at $125 an hour another $30k

So... I can call it quits, tuck my tail and let you guys have a piggy back tuning solution, or... someone pays me for the tunes as we co tinue to release new versions.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Egggxactly!

If need be, I will start a go fund me page, because it starts at $40,000 to get this started, add another $50,000 for dataligging and a calubration database and another $20,000 for annual support. Mass produced cables and software would be around $110 each when done. Then, you would still have to pay me for a tune, at $400 to $700.

I don't have an extra $100,000 just laying around, lol.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Guys, if you really want a piggy back, we have one developed. Fuel wires, full boost, ignition and its fully user adjustable. $190 each. I personally do not like it as a tuning solution, but if you guys want it, I have no issues giving it to the community.

 

[Blitz]

My opinion as a consumer:

The majority of people are wanting no/light modification as evidenced by the poll here recently.

Right now "PIGGYBACKS" is just more "set and forget". Even if it ran worse times/had less horsepower(It's fairly similar), it would win in most consumers' eyes. It's easy to remove AND install for warranty, it takes alot of the worry out with monitoring and alarms integrated into the system, and it has a large consumer base vouching for it's safety. If there are people having big problems with them, they aren't speaking up loud enough. Most Stinger owners aren't dragging their cars weekly looking to eek out an extra tenth of a second.

Getting a stage 0/1 with nice numbers (400/430 whp would probably be great markers) and making those tunes PERFECT. No pops and gurgles. Increased gas mileage if possible. No sacrifice/added factory modes/settings. Conservative tune so people aren't worried. Well tested/lots of miles on cars running the tune. Cheap or built in monitoring/alarm options. Should be #1 priority for ECU tuners. The consumer base is much larger there, especially with the option to swap ECUs for dealership visits. Once people are raving about a stage 0/1, it's much easier to build onto that. It's what I'm looking for personally. (MY OPINION)

ECU tune is capable of more and it will beat piggyback in the long run, but adoption is about a lot more than that.

 

[Blitz]

Just to add onto my already long winded post, look at pressertech. Their numbers are lower than basically everyone else, but their users push their products because of their track record of driveability and safety. They modify nothing about the car and get you a bit more power without worries. It's selling.

 

[Menissalt]

The stinger is new, the demand is small, and the competition is minimal. If the platform continues to gain popularity then things are likely to change.

Hondas/Acuras have at least two platforms that can flash the ECU from your home and you get every map they release just by purchasing the product and they only cost between $450 and $800. These guys have been working on Hondas for a long time though and have a much larger consumer base so this product makes sense.

Personally I won't do a tune until a solution like this exists but I know that until there's enough of a market for that to be profitable there's no chance of a product like that being released.

 

[Jonathan Lasich]

People on this thread seem to be really jumping on the hand-held tuning box solution for ECU tunes for convenience sake. I totally see that, and the option of data logging with the intention of getting a custom tune is very appealing. What people have to realize though, is that hand-held tuning boxes cost money. i.e. Cobb Accessport--$1200 (more than the cost of a spare ECU)--then the cost of the tune---then the cost of back and forth customization (as some tuners charge for this). Then there's the subject of detectable ECU flash counts that some maintain dealers can see, then still void your warranty.

Seems to me that if downtime and warranty fears are a big deal, then a separate tuned ECU for your car would be the simplest solution (K.I.S.S.)

 

[TwinSnails]

Guys, if you really want a piggy back, we have one developed. Fuel wires, full boost, ignition and its fully user adjustable. $190 each. I personally do not like it as a tuning solution, but if you guys want it, I have no issues giving it to the community.

Plug and play or splice. Just curious...

I’ve akways loved my ECU tunes, but I haven’t seen long term reliability figures on the Stinger, so in my mind the Piggyback is easier to remove if problems start getting posted.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Plug and play or splice. Just curious...

I’ve akways loved my ECU tunes, but I haven’t seen long term reliability figures on the Stinger, so in my mind the Piggyback is easier to remove if problems start getting posted.

Plug and play. The fuel wires have to be tapped into the wire.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Just to add onto my already long winded post, look at pressertech. Their numbers are lower than basically everyone else, but their users push their products because of their track record of driveability and safety. They modify nothing about the car and get you a bit more power without worries. It's selling.

What is their track record with the Stinger? I made an attempt to discuss some things with Todd about tuning, and... he refused. Trying my best not to upset or insult anyone, how can you be a tuner, yet do not own a dyno?

No, before everyone goes crazy and says dyno this or dyno that or blah nbah blah. Lets look at every record setting car in just about every car/model community. The one common thing among all of them, they all have a dyno.

To add to this, exactly how far can you develop a tune without a shop car?

I have a database of 1000's of tunes through my network. You want a tune for your Veyron? Not a problem. 720S, easy. You want a tune for a Ford Raptor, easy I have access to any tune file you would ever want or need. That is what we refer to as cookie cutter tunes. You pay $100 - $200 from a service, and get the tune emailed over to you, or pull it from a database of 1000's of tunes.

I wanted to go further with the car/ECU/tune than a standard cookie cutter tune would allow. So, we put it on the dyno and started the mapping of the ECU to get us further along.

The ECU's are very complex, and I could remove .5 from a persons 1/4 mile time with no change to boost, ignition or air fueling. Simply making changes to shift management, and letting the car leave harder from a dead stop. This is where a properly engineered tune, vs a box will never be the same.

 

[TwinSnails]

I’ve always street tuned mine for the overall drivability, not max power on the dyno.

Personally I think of the dyno tune as a generic WOT max power tune that you then polish on street logs.

 

[Blitz]

What is their track record with the Stinger? I made an attempt to discuss some things with Todd about tuning, and... he refused. Trying my best not to upset or insult anyone, how can you be a tuner, yet do not own a dyno?

No, before everyone goes crazy and says dyno this or dyno that or blah nbah blah. Lets look at every record setting car in just about every car/model community. The one common thing among all of them, they all have a dyno.

To add to this, exactly how far can you develop a tune without a shop car?

I have a database of 1000's of tunes through my network. You want a tune for your Veyron? Not a problem. 720S, easy. You want a tune for a Ford Raptor, easy I have access to any tune file you would ever want or need. That is what we refer to as cookie cutter tunes. You pay $100 - $200 from a service, and get the tune emailed over to you, or pull it from a database of 1000's of tunes.

I wanted to go further with the carx I wanted to push the limits

I was mostly referring to their track record with higher end cars. Marketing is highly effective. You don't bump the Pressertech rap on the daily? BANGER.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I cannot argue with the price, nor the ease of removal. My intention for this post, is to educate on the differences between them, functional performance.

As far as there should be no additional costs for upgrading a tune... what would be my benefit to further the development then? Do you work for free? Because that is exactly what you are asking me to do.

Very few people understand what goes into tune development, so here is a quick run down.

$5k in software
$10k in hardware
$45k in testing equipment
$2k a month to store all of this.

Figure 40 to 60 hours for the first tune, at $125 an hour. $5k

Now, we had to purchase a car to do this testing with, so add $40k there.

I now have close to 250 hours into the ECU dissassembly, testing, installing parts, uninstalling parts, and testing said parts on the car, revusing the tune to work with said parts. All the time risking my warranty and possible catastrophic failure of my personal car.

250 hours at $125 an hour another $30k

So... I can call it quits, tuck my tail and let you guys have a piggy back tuning solution, or... someone pays me for the tunes as we co tinue to release new versions.

I get what your saying there are additional cost involved with the continued engineering... but Berger does it. He has a shop car. I was in no way attacking your pricing. You guys do what you need to to keep the lights on I 100% get it, but my point stands as to why this is one of the reason I FEEL piggy backs > ECU Tunes at the moment. I am sure he has quite a bit invested in the development for this and releases updates to us when available (i believe a new one is hitting us this weekend).

I do feel like you are the best customer service in terms of ECU Tunes and I 100% understand why its harder for you as the Majority of the modding market for the Stinger will likely use a piggyback, but until a solution to make us feel warm and fuzzy (reflashing to stock at home making adjustments to maps at home etc). I just dont think this is the better of the two options.

Would love to know more about your piggy back tune. Is it 1 map for all? Will subsequent maps be at a added cost? Will we be able to update on our own? Any dyno using the piggyback on a stock car within the different maps (if more than 1 available)?

 

[Sales@Tork]

My opinion as a consumer:

The majority of people are wanting no/light modification as evidenced by the poll here recently.

Right now "PIGGYBACKS" is just more "set and forget". Even if it ran worse times/had less horsepower(It's fairly similar), it would win in most consumers' eyes. It's easy to remove AND install for warranty, it takes alot of the worry out with monitoring and alarms integrated into the system, and it has a large consumer base vouching for it's safety. If there are people having big problems with them, they aren't speaking up loud enough. Most Stinger owners aren't dragging their cars weekly looking to eek out an extra tenth of a second.

Getting a stage 0/1 with nice numbers (400/430 whp would probably be great markers) and making those tunes PERFECT. No pops and gurgles. Increased gas mileage if possible. No sacrifice/added factory modes/settings. Conservative tune so people aren't worried. Well tested/lots of miles on cars running the tune. Cheap or built in monitoring/alarm options. Should be #1 priority for ECU tuners. The consumer base is much larger there, especially with the option to swap ECUs for dealership visits. Once people are raving about a stage 0/1, it's much easier to build onto that. It's what I'm looking for personally. (MY OPINION)

ECU tune is capable of more and it will beat piggyback in the long run, but adoption is about a lot more than that.

I feel that you missed the most important difference.

Currently the piggy backs are having to run much more boost, ignition timing and hidding those signals from the ECU and kicking the car out of any protection limits, and still running slower times at the track and with Dragy.

Its not so much about adoption, as it is educating the community.

 

[DaJackson]

I am currious how you assumed an ECU tune is more, "on the edge" than a piggy back?

With a properly developed tune, you can do more with less. Less boost, less ignition timing, less and safer air fuels. The other benefit from a properly engineered tune is you never have to worry about safety limits being turned off, or the sensor signals being hidden from the ECU like a piggy back. Things like turbine max temp thresholds, overboost, load limits for knock protection, ect.

Now, can you take a tune to the limit or exceed the threshold of whats safe? Yes, you can, but any tuner does so knowing this, and reveals that to their customers before releasing a tune.

I do find it odd that you would assume a tune is more "edge" than a piggy back, but hopefully this thread helps clear up those misconseprtions.

To clarify a few things. Bad tunes are bad tunes independent of ECU, piggy back or OBDII scam tunes. I’m talking about quality tunes on both sides.

My statement was not that all ECU tunes are on the edge. But as you stated ECU tunes touch many more peramiters and tables than a piggy back and thus have the POSSIBILITY of having more issues when trying to get the most power out of the platform.

 

[Sales@Tork]

I’ve always street tuned mine for the overall drivability, not max power on the dyno.

Personally I think of the dyno tune as a generic WOT max power tune that you then polish on street logs.

On a known platform, agreed. If you have ready made and tested map indexes and written tunes, a street tune is optimal. When desling with a new platform, new engine, and new ECU processor, you had better have it on a dyno first, and test everything from 100% throttle to off throttle conditions.

Then, you mive your tuning over to to timed runs on the dyno, because its easy to remove .5 second from a 40 to 140 mph pull on the dyno, yet have the power never change. This is what happens when you start digging into shift management, throttle open and close times, cam timing, cylinder peak pressure, and related cam timing.

When you have all that figured out, then... you integrate low load, medium load and high load maps to linearize power delivery, and smoothness.

There are several dozen maps inside the ECU that address engine smoothness and "jerk control" for daily drivability, hell... they have electronic throttle control maps for "rough road conditions" to keep the throttle control to keep from going crazy, on "rough roads", lol.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I feel that you missed the most important difference.

Currently the piggy backs are having to run much more boost, ignition timing and hidding those signals from the ECU and kicking the car out of any protection limits, and still running slower times at the track and with Dragy.

Its not so much about adoption, as it is educating the community.

I said it before, but to reiterate there are benefits to running a full ECU tune. Im not PRO piggyback at all, but just like the majority of the community I am PRO WARRANTY. Its just too hard to justify coming up with the funds for a spare ECU and definitely not realistic to have to send your ECU back just to get service work from a dealership. I think once you nail down how we can do some of these things at home (I do know you are working on them, so im excited) alot more people will get on board. Especially me.

 

[Sales@Tork]

To clarify a few things. Bad tunes are bad tunes independent of ECU, piggy back or OBDII scam tunes. I’m talking about quality tunes on both sides.

My statement was not that all ECU tunes are on the edge. But as you stated ECU tunes touch many more peramiters and tables than a piggy back and thus have the POSSIBILITY of having more issues when trying to get the most power out of the platform.

Agreed, and there is a possibility we will be visited by aliens one day (just having fun so don't freak out)

There is a very high possibility that a piggy back will cause more damage than a tune. Now, why would I say that?

1. Piggy back hides values from the ECU, and its just simple thing like fuel level. Its very importnat things like o2 sensor readings and boost levels.
2. Its not always about making the most power, as I stated earlier... a tune change in shift management will make a car considerably faster without adding any power, thus reducing the need for more boost.

Now, I am going to try and explain this, but its going to be confusing.

The reason more changes have to be made is because you have to adjust all the safety limits for the elavated power levels. Where a piggy back just masks them. Masking or signal modification to render them usless or turn them off, horrible idea. There are over 300 protection systems active on the Stinger, I have not had the time to dig through all of them, but right now I have counted 36 for knock protection, 40 ish for GDI intervention, and several for air, oil, exhaust, coolant, and any other form of temp management you can dream up

These need to be addressed and and adjusted accordingly so as to be functional, but not intervien at lower levels of operation.

On one of TonkaBob's tunes we had throttle intervention due to max acceleration limits being hit, adjusted those and bang!!! 11 second Dragy past. These are simply areas of the ECU that cannot be adjusted with a piggy back and even worse, they are masked by the piggy back.

We will eventully find the edge, and when we do... we will let people know

 

[Sales@Tork]

I said it before, but to reiterate there are benefits to running a full ECU tune. Im not PRO piggyback at all, but just like the majority of the community I am PRO WARRANTY. Its just too hard to justify coming up with the funds for a spare ECU and definitely not realistic to have to send your ECU back just to get service work from a dealership. I think once you nail down how we can do some of these things at home (I do know you are working on them, so im excited) alot more people will get on board. Especially me.

Agreed, here is my concern. If everyone is worried about the implications of warranty, then why are so many exhaust systems and intake systems being sold? Still voids your warranty

The problem being, piggy backs have been given the green light because they are easy to remove, and eventually will cause a failure (don't get me started on plug gaps and broken spark plugs).

A properly engineered "tune" scares people, because there was this guy, whos friends sister got a tune from her uncles best friend and it broke down on their wedding day, lol. People simply have misconseptions about tuning and figure tuners just go in and crank the boost up, remove fuel and run more timing, because lean is mean that simply is not the case. You damn near need an engineering degree to tune a car these days die to how complicated they have become.