Snow tires + AWD?

[MerlintheMad]

Depending on where you live, you could probably make it through the winter with a good set of all season or even better all weather tires.

Okay, "A/W" is a new one for me. What the heck is the difference between all season and all weather tires?

 

[SteveCo]

Okay, "A/W" is a new one for me. What the heck is the difference between all season and all weather tires?

As you would expect, all weather is a compromise that performs better in the winter than an all season tire, and better in the summer than a winter tire.

Like all compromises, it's not ideal for either - so the best high performance solution (in an appropriate climate) it is two sets of dedicated tires - winter and summer.

 

[Josh16162]

As you would expect, all weather is a compromise that performs better in the winter than an all season tire, and better in the summer than a winter tire.

Like all compromises, it's not ideal for either - so the best high performance solution (in an appropriate climate) it is two sets of dedicated tires - winter and summer.

They're essentially what some people think "all season" tires are.

 

[Luc]

Snowing here in Toronto; went down to Mississauga today and had a few slippery moments on my Sottozeros. Have them mounted on the stock rims, people don't believe they're winter tyres due to the lower profile! It's my first time ever driving in snow, definitely being mindful of my right foot, especially on left turns after a dead stop at a traffic light!

One 'OH SH*T' moment is one too many! I'm glad to have the Winter tyre + AWD (eco mode)!

 

[MerlintheMad]

Like all compromises, it's not ideal for either - so the best high performance solution (in an appropriate climate) it is two sets of dedicated tires - winter and summer.

I'm not seeing any difference; A/W, A/S, same thing it sounds like to me.

My Nitto Motivo UHP A/S staggered 19s are not as grippy in the high summer as Michelin UHP summer tires are, but only a little bit less performance. Near the threshold of a summer UHP tire, the Motivo will probably be equal; and the colder it gets beyond that point, the worse the summer tire fares until it is undriveable; but the A/S keeps on keeping on. The other extreme, the dedicated winter tire, only works better than anything else in bad conditions. There's a huge overlap where the A/S is equal to the winter (the summer tire has dropped out of the contest long ago). The next snowfall or freezing rain, the winter tire triumphs. But the instant the roads warm (during an "Indian summer" spell, which around here can last for weeks), and the summer tires would be okay again, the winter tires start to turn to crap in the handling at speed department. The A/S reigns supreme.

That is why, if you don't want the hassle and expense of maintaining two sets of tires, you just wait out those relatively short periods when conditions do not favor the A/S at its best: which would be high summer heat and extreme winter road conditions. Where summers are brief and winters long, it would be the natural thing to have both sets and leave out A/S altogether. That's when two sets of rims make the most sense: which is where you are coming from. I don't see most places in the US benefiting from doing that.

 

[Josh16162]

I'm not seeing any difference; A/W, A/S, same thing it sounds like to me.

My Nitto Motivo UHP A/S staggered 19s are not as grippy in the high summer as Michelin UHP summer tires are, but only a little bit less performance. Near the threshold of a summer UHP tire, the Motivo will probably be equal; and the colder it gets beyond that point, the worse the summer tire fares until it is undriveable; but the A/S keeps on keeping on. The other extreme, the dedicated winter tire, only works better than anything else in bad conditions. There's a huge overlap where the A/S is equal to the winter (the summer tire has dropped out of the contest long ago). The next snowfall or freezing rain, the winter tire triumphs. But the instant the roads warm (during an "Indian summer" spell, which around here can last for weeks), and the summer tires would be okay again, the winter tires start to turn to crap in the handling at speed department. The A/S reigns supreme.

That is why, if you don't want the hassle and expense of maintaining two sets of tires, you just wait out those relatively short periods when conditions do not favor the A/S at its best: which would be high summer heat and extreme winter road conditions. Where summers are brief and winters long, it would be the natural thing to have both sets and leave out A/S altogether. That's when two sets of rims make the most sense: which is where you are coming from. I don't see most places in the US benefiting from doing that.

Many places in Canada actually ban all season tires/summer tires in the Winter. All weather and winter tires are both allowed.

All weather tires were designed to be a a very good alternative for winter tires. I would even go as far as saying that they are more ideal for winter than summer, whereas all seasons are more ideal for summer than winter. The only difference is that all seasons can be downright dangerous in the winter but all weather are a lot less likely to be in the summer.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Clearly, I required further educating on the existence of "A/W" tires. All Season versus All Weather tires | TireBuyer.com

And there you have it: A/W are like A/S on steroids. More grip and stopping power on snow and ice than A/S. But not dramatically so: only 14' shorter stopping distance from 30 MPH; and 8' shorter stopping distance from 15 MPH. Not a word about how high speed performance goes with an A/W; whereas I know that my Nitto Motivo A/S has an UHP rating, i.e. over 186 MPH. I bet there isn't an A/W around that is rated "Y" (over 186 MPH); and that puts them off my short list of what I must have in a tire.

If I lived in a harsh winter climate with long periods of snow packed roads: first of all I'd most likely maintain two vehicles, one for snow and one for everything else. But if one vehicle, the Stinger, I'd go with two sets of rims and winter and summer tires, and be prepared to swap them with alacrity as the weather dips and rises. Since Utah weather is more moderate with only briefly and widely spaced extreme weather incidents, it makes sense to me to go with one set of tires and just drive with extra precautions when it is horrible out there.

 

[SteveCo]

I'm not seeing any difference; A/W, A/S, same thing it sounds like to me.

All season is a misnomer - they are really a three season tire, if used in areas that see true winter weather. All weather tires were meant to try and address that by shifting the range of operating conditions toward increased winter performance, while still allowing all year use.

The physical layout of the tread is different, along with the rubber compound. Lots of information online if you search for the difference between all season vs. all weather.

 

[MerlintheMad]

All season is a misnomer

If you say so. You do live a lot closer to the Great White North than we do, after all. Your worldview is "harsher", after all.

See my above post. There isn't anything "misnormerish" about A/S around here. I've been driving on them my whole life.

 

[POS VETT]

All Season or All Weather are all the same, they're All Suck

 

[Jimmer]

Clearly, I required further educating on the existence of "A/W" tires. All Season versus All Weather tires | TireBuyer.com

And there you have it: A/W are like A/S on steroids. More grip and stopping power on snow and ice than A/S. But not dramatically so: only 14' shorter stopping distance from 30 MPH; and 8' shorter stopping distance from 15 MPH. Not a word about how high speed performance goes with an A/W; whereas I know that my Nitto Motivo A/S has an UHP rating, i.e. over 186 MPH. I bet there isn't an A/W around that is rated "Y" (over 186 MPH); and that puts them off my short list of what I must have in a tire.

If I lived in a harsh winter climate with long periods of snow packed roads: first of all I'd most likely maintain two vehicles, one for snow and one for everything else. But if one vehicle, the Stinger, I'd go with two sets of rims and winter and summer tires, and be prepared to swap them with alacrity as the weather dips and rises. Since Utah weather is more moderate with only briefly and widely spaced extreme weather incidents, it makes sense to me to go with one set of tires and just drive with extra precautions when it is horrible out there.

I use the original rims and switch out the summer tires it came with and the All Seasons I got for our winters. Summer tires get put on end of March/beginning of April. All seasons get put on end of September/Beginning of October.

 

[LawnMan]

This is starting to sound too complicated. In summary, can we just say everyone should buy (Summer, Winter, All Season, All Weather, Drag Radials) whatever they feel comfortable with in the environment they drive?

 

[MerlintheMad]

This is starting to sound to complicated. In summary, can we just say everyone should buy (Summer, Winter, All Season, All Weather, Drag Radials) whatever they feel comfortable with in the environment they drive?

Yes, we can say that, if we have lots of money, storage space and inclination. Obviously, track worthy tires are not going to be good for much of anything else outside of summer driving in a four seasons climate.

 

[SteveCo]

only 14' shorter stopping distance from 30 MPH;

Tell that to the guy who T-bones an SUV after sliding 'only' 14 feet past a stop sign when cautiously approaching a major thoroughfare in bad or unexpected conditions, like glare ice under a covering of powder snow. That extra grip sounds pretty appealing when they're hooking up your car to the wrecker, and you're standing in the cold calling your insurance company ...

I like having high performance tires on my car in the summer, and likewise want the best performing tires in the winter. What tires are best depends on the local climate - all seasons are fine for some warmer climes that don't see harsh winter conditions, not so much for others. There will always be people who 'make do' with sub-optimal tires for their weather and road conditions (except in places like the province of Quebec, which has made winter tires a legal requirement for part of the year).

Most of the time, by driving very cautiously you can get away with it. But no matter how carefully you drive things happen that you have no control over, and those are the time it bites you.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Most of the time, by driving very cautiously you can get away with it. But no matter how carefully you drive things happen that you have no control over, and those are the time it bites you.

That will potentially happen just by driving in the first place. So let's not get pedantic about this. Knowing your limitations is the core skill when driving under any and all conditions. So when I go out with A/S in a heavy snow storm, all I need to know is the stopping power of the vehicle: I don't need to be in the vehicle that stops in the shortest distance. You adjust to what you are driving. Our canyons often have the warning posted: "Snow tires and/or chains required". Period. Yet people will hazard the attempt without either. Every day up there people slide off the road or into immovable objects; and sometimes they slide off where there is a deadly drop off. As long as you control the car, that's all you can do. What other drivers do that you cannot control is always the inevitable hazard; the roll of the dice. It doesn't matter how good your car is in the snow if someone loses it and takes your space for avoidance away.

 

[GTA Jay]

Unfortunately some people just don’t get it, or are too stubborn to realize their logic is flawed. At the end of the day, if you live in an area that goes through a winter season, snow tires are always the better option over all season, which are really 3 season tires. Empirical evidence proves grip and stopping distance of a winter tire is far superior. If you are going to follow Merlin’s logic, don’t even bother wearing a seat belt either. So long as you know the limitations of your vehicle, and are willing to “roll the dice” as to what others will do.

 

[SteveCo]

I don't need to be in the vehicle that stops in the shortest distance.

No you don't - most of the time.

But when you hit that patch of black ice that you didn't see or anticipate, or when somebody on summer tires suddenly spins in front of you, it doesn't matter if you know your limitations, have all wheel drive, or have Brembo brakes. Whether your car travels an extended distance into moving traffic, slides through a crosswalk, goes through a fence, or pushes out of the curve you're trying to follow, doesn't depend on knowing your limitations, or being aware of what the car can do.

It depends on how much grip you have at that temperature, on that surface - on four tiny patches of rubber.

 

[MerlintheMad]

It depends on how much grip you have at that temperature, on that surface - on four tiny patches of rubber.

Which you can't know even with snow tires. If I know what happens with A/S, I know as much as you do with winter tires. And I had better drive accordingly. That's how I've managed to get through winter after winter for decades without prangs, much less totalling accidents, on A/S tires. Once you know your car, you know how to drive it. With winter tires you still have to learn how it drives. So you will find your limits and I already know mine: right now I drive this car like I drove my FWD van; which gives me a ton of extra leeway, which I have already discovered is there. When I skidded it wasn't deliberately, but it was when rounding a corner to see what would happen; pretty much what I expected, and at slow speed it skidded and then straightened out.

If you know the limits of your winter tires and hit that black ice it's going to catch you too; then it's just a crap shoot whether the conditions are favorable for stopping in time. Quite possibly neither of us will. But also maybe because I am on A/S I know that my speed must be less and you'll hit that black ice going faster, because you know that your winter grip allows you to stop in forty to fifty percent less distance than A/S do. Both of us will stop short of the calamity because we both know what our cars can do and drive accordingly.

The short version is: speed and distance. That is all that determines whether you avoid an accident.

Defensive driving around others will only achieve so much. That's the crap shoot.

 

[Kazz]

Again, all-season tires are a compromise. Not as good in winter as a quality, dedicated winter tire. And not as good in summer as a quality, dedicated high performance summer tire.

If you like to drive on a compromise, go for it. I choose to use two sets of wheels and tires, summer and winter.

 

[Kazz]

I have a 2019 AWD GT2 with a dedicated Snow wheel/tire set (Blizzak tire and aftermarket wheels). It cost me just under $1,600 and the shop will remove and install them every season for free. I live in in central Illinois. We get snow, ice, wind, and sub zero temps. The roads do get cleaned by the plows but they need time to get to all the streets. I drive on the express way, county roads and city roads. I work alot of hours and start very early in the morning. To me the snow tire package for a car I am going to keep for about 7 years, it is worth it. At the end of the day, tires will not make you invincible. You still have to drive responsibly. You still have to be aware of other drivers.

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