Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[DaBears4Lyfe]

The basic FACT that you're missing is the 60' times. Running at a real track has its advantages and those are mainly in the launch. He ran 1.95 60' on his stock tires compared to my 2.06 60' on 555Rs. Now if I were to run at a true track I'm sure I could best his 60' and then you could argue the 555Rs were a huge advantage. But based on the numbers (1.95s stock tires, vs. 2.06s 555Rs), there is no net advantage.

It seems to me anyone who comes in contact with JohnB for too long loses some of their rationality and critical thinking. His tuning should include a disclaimer.

Like I said back up your statement in your ToC… better yet ill keep it screenshot that your statement is that the Jb4 is undetectedable furthermore can not be the root basis of a voided warranty.

 

[Terry@BMS]

So then your official statement is the JB4 will never be detected by Kia Dealership and will never void warranty... Would you care to add that to your Terms of Agreement and or Conditions. If that's the case this should be a huge selling point for you and if it isn't people could just come to you for the $ if did. Im curious to why your ToC say the opposite and I quote:

Our terms and conditions which apply to all performance parts we sell are perfectly clear, in my signature, and on our website. We are not interested in being anyones partner in warranty fraud. That does not change the FACT that a properly designed piggyback by nature of how it has to be designed to function properly is not detectable.

Guess I should ask Tork what he scrapped any of the Cats for and minus that to the total as well then... Terry your started to have crap just fall out of your mouth.

OK if you want to include what he recovered for selling his factory emissions equipment, IC, etc, in your fictional comparison then fine with me. What is that $100? lol. My point on the 18" rims is they are a lateral move.

It's funny because up until this morning it was all about how powerful of an upgrade WMI is. I wonder what you guys will say when it runs 11s on just E30?

Anyway if you read my posts closely you'll see I've stated there are specific things you can do via flash tuning that should result in much better times than you're getting now. I hope you're all able to figure it out. And once you're running that tuning you'll start to appreciate some of what the JB4 can continue to add for you in terms of easy wireless data logging, boost by gear, adjusting boost up or down based on racing conditions & fuel used, a VALET map so you can run low boost when needed, integrated WMI control if you decide to go down that road some day, etc.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Our terms and conditions which apply to all performance parts we sell are perfectly clear, in my signature, and on our website. We are not interested in being anyones partner in warranty fraud. That does not change the FACT that a properly designed piggyback by nature of how it has to be designed to function properly is not detectable.

This is a BOLD FACE lie. They 100% can be detected through proper diagnostics.

OK if you want to include what he recovered for selling his factory emissions equipment, IC, etc, in your fictional comparison then fine with me. What is that $100? lol. My point on the 18" rims is they are a lateral move.

YOU ARE THE ONE THAT SAID IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME I RECOUPED x AMOUNT OF DOLLARS FOR SELLING MY STOCK WHEELS AND TIRES LMAO NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! lol

It's funny because up until this morning it was all about how powerful of an upgrade WMI is. I wonder what you guys will say when it runs 11s on just E30?

I doubt anything since once the new stage 2 is out they should have people like Tonka and Torks shop car running mid 11s

Anyway if you read my posts closely you'll see I've stated there are specific things you can do via flash tuning that should result in much better times than you're getting now. I hope you're all able to figure it out. And once you're running that tuning you'll start to appreciate some of what the JB4 can continue to add for you in terms of easy wireless data logging, boost by gear, adjusting boost up or down based on racing conditions & fuel used, a VALET map so you can run low boost when needed, integrated WMI control if you decide to go down that road some day, etc.

Once I do get a flashed ECU tune, Ill pick up a $20 OBD logger to use over the JB4 for economics sense. Don't plan on running meth as I think a 50-75 shot will be more what I want. For those running WMI I think it can be usefull unless they get a different brand like AEM or Snow that comes with its own stand alone controls. I will miss the Valet mode though.. I usually left it in valet over night lol.

Well im done for the day.

In conclusion, I do appreciate the JB4 and what it will do for the community... but I do not appreciate the many misconceptions that keep getting thrown out there.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Once I do get a flashed ECU tune, Ill pick up a $20 OBD logger to use over the JB4 for economics sense. Don't plan on running meth as I think a 50-75 shot will be more what I want. For those running WMI I think it can be usefull unless they get a different brand like AEM or Snow that comes with its own stand alone controls.

The logging on those generic systems is slower, doesn't have all the parameters, and more importantly doesn't do all the formatting and scaling for you. It's a real headache to use relative to JB4 mobile.

The stand alone WMI controllers are harder to wire and install, and do not tie back to the tuning. So they can't lower boost if meth isn't fully flowing, won't cut WMI flow when DSC kicks in, don't block WMI flow until engine is up to temperature, etc.

On the N20 you'll want the JB4 to control that also. You don't want nitrous to flow if AFR is going lean, fuel trims maxing out, or excessive knock is detected. Plus you'll want it to cut out during shifts to save the transmission, and won't want it to engage in lower gears off the line. Normally you'd keep it off until 3rd gear for example.

Anyway just basic examples. You're just talking about replacing the JB4 piggyback that does everything with various separate add on systems (obdii logger, wmi controller, n2o controller) that are harder to install, harder to use, and won't perform as well because they are not integrated in to the tuning.

 

[Sales@Tork]

That's just a quick run on the way to the office this morning. Based on the MPH I'm confident it will run 11s with the WMI kit off now on E30. WMI helps a lot on 91 octane when you're octane limited. On E30 the octane isn't really a factor. Maybe on a warm day with the factory intercooler it will make a bigger difference but temps are in the low 60s right now.

But big picture you're asking your customers to throw $800 down the drain in a one time flash along with their warranty just so they can run 11.98@119 instead of 12.06@119?

Even if the cars ran the same parts that would be ridiculous. But they aren't running the same parts. You are fully catless with no muffler, upgraded IC, and while I disclosed I was on E30 this morning & post logs of every run we're to trust you did all those runs at the track trying to break in to the 11s and didn't increase the octane? Didn't remove any weight? As the saying goes I was born at night but not last night.

As I've said all along with flash mapping there are several things you can do that are not possible JB4 only. But there are trade offs too. Those who are really serious about performance run both for obvious reasons. But it's funny to see in these early stages just how competitive the JB4 only solution is to the flash maps.

Terry,
You are still looking at our results from 6 months ago and are just now barely catching up. You have no idea what we have in the car now and yet are still running a less aggressive tune then you, stock tires, pump gas, and no methanol..... We were really hoping you would have been much further by now.... Why havent you passed us yet? No warranty wont be thrown away Come on Terry we have all went over this we will either flash the vehicle back to stock then reflash the tune or they could purchase a spare ECU for a proper tune not a signal modifier. Someone posted in another thread on who has how much into their car. retail value your car came out to quite a bit more yet your running slower times still from what we ran 6 months ago?

 

[SteveCo]

This is a BOLD FACE lie. They 100% can be detected through proper diagnostics.

This back and forth sniping is really getting rather tedious, especially as there is an existing thread comparing the two approaches to tuning - but I must admit you've piqued my curiosity with this.

@Terry@BMS believes the nature of a piggyback chip won't allow detection once its removed, though he's not suggestion that be exploited for fraudulent purposes (I agree on taking the moral high road).

Exactly what diagnostics are you referring to, reading what information left by the piggyback installation?

 

[Terry@BMS]

Terry,
You are still looking at our results from 6 months ago and are just now barely catching up. You have no idea what we have in the car now and yet are still running a less aggressive tune then you, stock tires, pump gas, and no methanol..... We were really hoping you would have been much further by now.... Why havent you passed us yet? No warranty wont be thrown away Come on Terry we have all went over this we will either flash the vehicle back to stock then reflash the tune or they could purchase a spare ECU for a proper tune not a signal modifier. Someone posted in another thread on who has how much into their car. retail value your car came out to quite a bit more yet your running slower times still from what we ran 6 months ago?

Better send them a new stability control module, new transmission module, new fuel pump module, and a new airbag module too, because all of those store true peak torque/load requested with a flash map.

Talking with you and your minions is frustrating because you guys just repeat the same clearly false and misleading claims over and over again. When proven wrong then you just jump to making an inflammatory statement to change the subject. Is this how CNN feels about Trump? lol

 

[Sales@Tork]

If people should try to make warranty claims when they damage their cars with tuning is another story all together. They should not. But whether or not you can easily detect a piggyback depends on how the piggyback is implemented. Even a poorly implemented piggyback is difficult to detect. A properly implemented one nearly impossible. Because the ECU is only seeing factory values on every parameter. But flash tuning is another story all together. It's almost impossible NOT to detect it even if flashed to stock. It's crazy to me that flash tuners propagate this myth that you can flash back to stock, even charge customers to flash back to stock, this business with multiple DMEs, etc. Anyway to each their own.

Who is charging customers to charge back to stock terry? But thank you for admitting Piggybacks can be detected.

 

[Kamauxx]

This back and forth sniping is really getting rather tedious, especially as there is an existing thread comparing the two approaches to tuning - but I must admit you've piqued my curiosity with this.

@Terry@BMS believes the nature of a piggyback chip won't allow detection once its removed, though he's not suggestion that be exploited for fraudulent purposes (I agree on taking the moral high road).

Exactly what diagnostics are you referring to, reading what information left by the piggyback installation?

For what it's worth there's a member here who had his turbos fail. Before taking the car to the dealership he removed a piggyback, BOVs, intake, and probably more that I'm forgetting.

If I remember correctly the repair work cost over $15k and was covered under warranty.

I'm not saying piggybacks CAN'T be detected. But I can't think of a situation more appropriate than his for the dealership to run some sort of diagnostics to verify the car hadn't been modified. His case gave me some optimism that piggybacks are harder to detect than what the rumor mill tells us.

 

[Sales@Tork]

For what it's worth there's a member here who had his turbos fail. Before taking the car to the dealership he removed a piggyback, BOVs, intake, and probably more that I'm forgetting.

If I remember correctly the repair work cost over $15k and was covered under warranty.

I'm not saying piggybacks CAN'T be detected. But I can't think of a situation more appropriate than his for the dealership to run some sort of diagnostics to verify the car hadn't been modified. His case gave me some optimism that piggybacks are harder to detect than what the rumor mill tells us.

It just proves the dealership didnt dig deep enough. Or did they really even dig? No one will truly ever know the answer to this. I wonder why the turbos failed? it is good the customer got everything fixed under warranty. Terry has already admitted the piggybacks can be detected by the dealer

 

[washguy]

This is some serious "BENCH RACING " hahahaaa.....back old school we did it in person....not on a freakin keyboard.....lol carry on Wash

 

[TorkMe]

Better send them a new stability control module, new transmission module, new fuel pump module, and a new airbag module too, because all of those store true peak torque/load requested with a flash map.

Talking with you and your minions is frustrating because you guys just repeat the same clearly false and misleading claims over and over again. When proven wrong then you just jump to making an inflammatory statement to change the subject. Is this how CNN feels about Trump? lol

Terry, can you show us where in the BCM, TCM, SRS, and any other control modules that share peak torque values? I would like to see map indexing with a video showing the system calibration ID, and vehicle manufacture of the ECU you are reading/mapping.

You are telling the community that these systems log this data, but have no proof. Yet, turnaround in the next paragraph and tell us that we are giving false or misleading information? Where have you proven anyone wrong?

Now, I am fully expecting to see something about my mental health, or my in ability as a tuners to see through your expertise and two decades of experience or some other bullshit. But, damn dude... I had left this whole debate behind me and was expecting you to just get better results, not attack everyone in the community and claim them to be minions.

 

[TorkMe]

Not only that... but which one of us has a disclaimer in their posts?

Food for thought people.

Just wait... when we have some dry roads and I have some time to dial in the torque limits for LC on my car... new records for sure will be falling.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Terry, can you show us where in the BCM, TCM, SRS, and any other control modules that share peak torque values? I would like to see map indexing with a video showing the system calibration ID, and vehicle manufacture of the ECU you are reading/mapping.

You are telling the community that these systems log this data, but have no proof. Yet, turnaround in the next paragraph and tell us that we are giving false or misleading information? Where have you proven anyone wrong?

Now, I am fully expecting to see something about my mental health, or my in ability as a tuners to see through your expertise and two decades of experience or some other bullshit. But, damn dude... I had left this whole debate behind me and was expecting you to just get better results, not attack everyone in the community and claim them to be minions.

I don't need to prove to you how these systems work no more than I need to prove the earth is round. This is a basic function of how control modules operate. And as I said previously while I haven't collected that data off Kia modules I have seen it first hand in BMW modules peaking over tech shoulders when they are doing diagnostics. The hardware is all similar and I know it's there and so do you. In addition to specific peak values stored should you ever happen to get a fault code that propagates to any modules they also store a freeze frame capture of real time data.

If you want to play this game with your customers that reflashing back to stock or even changing the ECU makes the tune invisible then be my guest. Ultimately it's going to be between you and your customers when they learn otherwise the hard way.

 

[Sales@Tork]

I don't need to prove to you how these systems work no more than I need to prove the earth is round. This is a basic function of how control modules operate. And as I said previously while I haven't collected that data off Kia modules I have seen it first hand in BMW modules peaking over tech shoulders when they are doing diagnostics. The hardware is all similar and I know it's there and so do you. In addition to specific peak values stored should you ever happen to get a fault code that propagates to any modules they also store a freeze frame capture of real time data.

If you want to play this game with your customers that reflashing back to stock or even changing the ECU makes the tune invisible then be my guest. Ultimately it's going to be between you and your customers when they learn otherwise the hard way.

Terry will you please stop assuming that the Kia and BMW are all made by the same people and are as similar as you state. Also Terry can you show us the Fuel Pump model on the Kia Stinger?

 

[Terry@BMS]

John is right a lot can change in 5 months. He should include a 10-pack of FedEx overnight boxes with every tune so his customers can mail back their ECU every time something changes for the latest update.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

John is right a lot can change in 5 months. He should include a 10-pack of FedEx overnight boxes with every tune so his customers can mail back their ECU every time something changes for the latest update.

Most would be happy beating out the jb4 on their current stage tune. ... but yes NDA and priority mail is expensive. I wonder how much you guys spent trying to get me a working obd cable? 3 shipments at about $20 each or so?

 

[Socalstinga]

Geezus who’s d@ck is bigger from behind a keyboard?! Let’s get back to the real discussion:
@TorkMe what boost psi is being run on the stage 1? And is stage 1 pretty much completed aka no more updates/changes to stage 1?

It just seems to me that if the Tork and jb4 times are close w/ less boost, that tells me that there are more parameters being maximized w/ the Tork tune and more likely safer due to the balance in tuning more parameters. Suggests speed + reliability and longevity?

 

[ryan1stinger]

If you feel that anything was held against you, I apologize for that.

Yes, a deal was built into the labor for you and I thought that was explained to you, hence... we didn't want you sharing prices.

That wait time of 24 hours was because it was mine and my wifes 15 year anniversary, Matt didn't want to bother me with the free intakes and I was not in the office when you asked that question. If 24 hours is to long to wait for an answer, its best for both of us that you got your refund.

Water under the bridge at this point, and it looks like we are both happy with the resolve.

@TorkMe I emailed tuned@damnfastdd.com on 11/29 asking about your intakes and muffler deletes and have yet to hear back. Despite the lack of response, I ended up purchasing the intakes based on TonkaBob’s recommendation. The reason I’m bringing this up and I have 20+ years in Customer Service you need to be responsive to your potential customers or else that will impact your business. I realize this could have slipped by, but someone needs to review and ensure emails don’t go unanswered. You have Tonkabob to thank for the purchase.

On a positive note keep up the great work on the platform and I look forward to the benefits from your intakes.

 

[brancky3]

I was wondering the same yesterday looking at Terrys logs. 14 + afr in first gear.
My logs I've posted are 1/4 mile runs and the afr is always flat right at 12 under wot.

That's not necessarily a bad thing though; a lot of cars are tuned more lean down low to spool the turbo faster. Also, direct injection made a lot of things possible / safer that couldn't be achieved with standard injection.