Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Sales@Tork]

I get your point and agree all mods should be included when quoting “highest trap & quickest 1/4m”. But then why only declare meth for the JB4 Stinger record, but not say the Tork ecu Stinger with FBO for Torks 11.98 run?Tork & anyone running a turbo-back exhaust is conservatively gaining 40-50whp removing all 4 cats. WMI doesn’t add more power, adding more boost/timing does. So it’s not only the JB4 or Tork ecu making the record run it’s all the related mods that actually made it happen and should always be declared.

Also an equivalent JB4 without Bluetooth App like the Tork ecu is $459 & the WMI kit is only $339=$798. That means you can run both for the same cost as just a Tork ecu by itself.

Lastly, please stop making comparisons between WMI and NOS... They are not the same! NOS kits are actually measured in added HP, while WMI simply prevents engine knock which allows for more power to be made. Even though WMI has other advantages(cooling, cleaning, etc) it’s still just a glorified version of octane booster. It’s not a true power adding upgrade like NOS or bolt on mods.

So unfortunately your UncleChip & NOS example makes no sense and is misleading.
Terry ran a 12.4@116 on a bone stock Stinger and dropped to 12.3@117 with just intakes. And agree, all Terry’s 1/4m times have significantly less mods but still achieves record times. If you compare mod for mod the JB4 definitely seems to have the advantage. Terry’s Stinger with FBOs like Torks would make another 40-50whp and easily run mid-high 11s.

I’m sure once Tork get WMI on his he will be running the same mid 11s too.
True but you left out the most important part...AWD! Your 11.95 run was with 1.8 60ft but Terry’s 12.0 was with a 2.0 60ft. To be fair, we all know if Terry ran a 1.8 60ft he’d easily be running 11.8s

Our car is RWD, Tonka's is AWD

 

[Sales@Tork]

Yep, completely agree with you. Piggybacks can only go so far if there are limits inside the ECU. But that being said, the 'fastest time' right now is literally a couple HUNDREDTHS of a second faster which could be attributed to so many different variables (weather, humidity, altitude, etc). The time difference is completely irrelevant in the real world (that's like 0.0001 car length). If the difference is a couple tenths of a second in the future then absolutely it will be clear cut which is faster, but having the top spot for the sake of having the top spot is really just semantics at this point.

You also have to look how aggressive their piggyback is running then the tune we had on our car 5-6 months ago. They are also running slicks and meth which meth a very big and helps more then most mods on our car.

 

[brancky3]

You also have to look how aggressive their piggyback is running then the tune we had on our car 5-6 months ago. They are also running slicks and meth which meth a very big and helps more then most mods on our car.

Yea I get it and I literally can't wait until you post a better time with an updated tune. I'm hoping you can get to mid 11s or better. Terry just posted another 120mph trap run without meth: 1/4 Mile Thread

 

[Sales@Tork]

Yea I get it and I literally can't wait until you post a better time with an updated tune. I'm hoping you can get to mid 11s or better. Terry just posted another 120mph trap run without meth: 1/4 Mile Thread

He was actually running methanol and E30 in the vehicle along with a much more aggressive tune that does not look good. Here is the mod list he posted. Same mods (JB4, BMS intake, BMS WMI 50/50 mix, Enkei 18" rims, 555R tires) but instead of 91 + octane booster I'm on 30% E85 this tank.

 

[brancky3]

He was actually running methanol and E30 in the vehicle along with a much more aggressive tune that does not look good. Here is the mod list he posted. Same mods (JB4, BMS intake, BMS WMI 50/50 mix, Enkei 18" rims, 555R tires) but instead of 91 + octane booster I'm on 30% E85 this tank.

Right, but there was another run done today without the meth - just E30. That trapped 119.8mph.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Right, but there was another run done today without the meth - just E30. That trapped 119.8mph.

Yes the 12.06 was was supposedly with no meth, yet still couldnt break the 11s

 

[TwinSnails]

@TorkMe when you datalog your ECU tune, are you doing from a 4th gear lug or just 0-xxx WOT run?

I’m trying to figure out why my logs (JB4) are lean until ~25ish MPH and then throttle is ~90-100 % open. Seems like the car would still like ~13 or less AFR’s from 0-25ish.

 

[brancky3]

@TorkMe when you datalog your ECU tune, are you doing from a 4th gear lug or just 0-xxx WOT run?

I’m trying to figure out why my logs (JB4) are lean until ~25ish MPH and then throttle is ~90-100 % open. Seems like the car would still like ~13 or less AFR’s from 0-25ish.

Post the logs to N54tech and maybe there are some fuel bias settings Terry can suggest

 

[Sales@Tork]

@TorkMe when you datalog your ECU tune, are you doing from a 4th gear lug or just 0-xxx WOT run?

I’m trying to figure out why my logs (JB4) are lean until ~25ish MPH and then throttle is ~90-100 % open. Seems like the car would still like ~13 or less AFR’s from 0-25ish.

You would have to ask @Tonkabob as he is the one logging

 

[TwinSnails]

It’s supposed to be normal, but I reviewed logs from other platforms I’ve owned and they all went 11.5 well before 3000 rpms in almost every gear. I’m thinking the only place my fuel settings with the wires need adjusting will be 6000-6800 rpms.

It would be great to be able to add fuel too. Haven’t figured that out.

 

[Tonkabob]

@TorkMe when you datalog your ECU tune, are you doing from a 4th gear lug or just 0-xxx WOT run?

I’m trying to figure out why my logs (JB4) are lean until ~25ish MPH and then throttle is ~90-100 % open. Seems like the car would still like ~13 or less AFR’s from 0-25ish.

I was wondering the same yesterday looking at Terrys logs. 14 + afr in first gear.
My logs I've posted are 1/4 mile runs and the afr is always flat right at 12 under wot.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Yes but without the luxury of a burn out on a well prepped track and with a worse 60' time. My rims/tires are $2100 but the factory rims/tires are not much less.



No because with the JB4 the vehicle is never aware it's making more than the factory boost, load, and toque levels. Meanwhile with the flash peak boost, load, and torque are stored across multiple modules on the vehicle. Flashing back to stock is really a waste of time (not fooling anyone) and tune flash tuners know it.

Don’t be fooled by those who say piggybacks “cannot be detected”. Many learned the hard way that they are. Since they do throw out fuel trims and sensor readings, that info can be discovered. And when they see it they know what it means.

 

[Terry@BMS]

You are starting to sound like Trump.

I think if we're going to superimpose politics on this JohnB definitely has the Trump role cornered lol.

Regarding how much faster his car is now, awesome. I'm just going by his latest published time.

You expect me to believe that someone went to the trouble to remove all emissions equipment, remove their muffler, redo the intercooler and piping, do countless track runs, but couldn't be bothered to remove the spare tire in the pits or add octane? Please.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Don’t be fooled by those who say piggybacks “cannot be detected”. Many learned the hard way that they are. Since they do throw out fuel trims and sensor readings, that info can be discovered. And when they see it they know what it means.

You'll notice we prevent the fuel trims from maxing out via the fuel control, which is very useful with E85. Remember just adding in a gallon or two of E85 will throw off your fuel trims compared to stock. Anyway you understand what I said in the last post right? About how with a flash map all modules (at least 4 that I know store it) are aware of true boost, true load, and true torque? I'm not suggesting people try funny business with their warranty but that doesn't change the fact that one way of doing this is easily detected despite reversal, and the other way is not.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

You'll notice we prevent the fuel trims from maxing out via the fuel control, which is very useful with E85. Remember just adding in a gallon or two of E85 will throw off your fuel trims compared to stock. Anyway you understand what I said in the last post right? About how with a flash map all modules (at least 4 that I know store it) are aware of true boost, true load, and true torque? I'm not suggesting people try funny business with their warranty but that doesn't change the fact that one way of doing this is easily detected despite reversal, and the other way is not.

I agree but both can and will be detected if the research is done. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I love your work terry but the misconception of "Piggy backs are undetected" by this community is crazy...

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I agree but both can and will be detected if the research is done. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I love your work terry but the misconception of Piggy backs are undetected by this community is crazy...

Same thing with the misconception of Torks Car being much more heavily modded when in fact your car really is. I just don't get why people don't check things out themselves.

Im by no way saying you spread the misconception either.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I agree but both can and will be detected if the research is done. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I love your work terry but the misconception of "Piggy backs are undetected" by this community is crazy...

If people should try to make warranty claims when they damage their cars with tuning is another story all together. They should not. But whether or not you can easily detect a piggyback depends on how the piggyback is implemented. Even a poorly implemented piggyback is difficult to detect. A properly implemented one nearly impossible. Because the ECU is only seeing factory values on every parameter. But flash tuning is another story all together. It's almost impossible NOT to detect it even if flashed to stock. It's crazy to me that flash tuners propagate this myth that you can flash back to stock, even charge customers to flash back to stock, this business with multiple DMEs, etc. Anyway to each their own.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Even a poorly implemented piggyback is difficult to detect. A properly implemented one nearly impossible. Because the ECU is only seeing factory values on every parameter.

OK so I retract my statement you do spread the misconception of a piggy back cant be detected. It's not nearly impossible or even a bad piggyback is difficult to detect. Don't spread that BS to people. Its simple It can be detected. Blow your motor, blow those turbos up and if Kia chooses to investigate they can find there were changes made that wouldn't have come from stock.

Don't do that Terry or be that guy.

I guess it's open for debate as to what car has more performance modifications.

As far as I know he has tuning, catless downpipes, catless midpipes, a muffler delete, intake, intercooler, lowering springs, factory 19" rims.

Ours has tuning, intake, aftermarket 18" rims.

You can claim the 18" rims are major modifications but some Stingers include 18" rims from the factory. The 555R rear tires clearly must not be that much better than stock as he has a better 60' on his stock tires? At some point factors like drivers weight, amount of gas in the tank, etc, come in to play. For example I have a half tank of gas in the car. What's that another 30# vs. having the fuel light on? What if I had stuck to last years new years resolution and lost that extra 15# around the gut? Is that a modification?

Our car drives, sounds, and smells like stock. At the push of a button on my phone can perform stock as well. It will pass the state emissions test. Meanwhile I personally wouldn't want to drive 2 miles in a catless muffler-less Stinger. But as long as the mods are all listed people can draw their own conclusions.

Well since I know you watch the other thread since you copy quotes from there you can see the breakdown please let me know if that's not correct.

Here Ill post it for you:

Tork:
Tork Tune Stage 1- $895.00
Tork Intakes - $189.00
Tork Muffle Deletes - $295.00
Tork Straight pipes from the Turbos replacing primaries and secondary cats - ??? Not sure I was quoted $350 to do a full straight pipe from the turbos back which would include the price of the muffler deletes lets call it - $200
FMIC - $950.00
Total - $2,529.00

Burger:
JB4 - $449.00
Bluetooth kit - $140.00
Fuel Wires - $30.00
Burger Intakes ??? not sure lets go with the same price as torks but I have a feeling they will be closer to Injens -$189.00
WMI - $508.00 (based on the kit he put together in his thread)
Wheels - Around $2,000.00
Drag Radials Not sure if hes only running the 2 in the back or not so lets say $500 -$1000 if hes running all 4.
Total $3,816 - $4,316 (Deepening on how many DRs hes using)

 

[Terry@BMS]

OK so I retract my statement you do spread the misconception of a piggy back cant be detected. It's not nearly impossible or even a bad piggyback is difficult to detect.

I've clearly stated why it's the case. If you want to prove otherwise feel free to. It's not even that you need to design a piggyback to avoid detection, it's a byproduct of how a piggyback works. If the ECU doesn't think the tuning is all stock then things won't work right.

Tork:
Tork Tune Stage 1- $895.00
Tork Intakes - $189.00
Tork Muffle Deletes - $295.00
Tork Straight pipes from the Turbos replacing primaries and secondary cats - ??? Not sure I was quoted $350 to do a full straight pipe from the turbos back which would include the price of the muffler deletes lets call it - $200
FMIC - $950.00
Total - $2,529.00

Burger:
JB4 - $449.00
Bluetooth kit - $140.00
Fuel Wires - $30.00
Burger Intakes ??? not sure lets go with the same price as torks but I have a feeling they will be closer to Injens -$189.00
WMI - $508.00 (based on the kit he put together in his thread)
Wheels - Around $2,000.00
Drag Radials Not sure if hes only running the 2 in the back or not so lets say $500 -$1000 if hes running all 4.
Total $3,816 - $4,316 (Deepening on how many DRs hes using)

It's just not a good analysis there.

First, as I mentioned in my comment we're using the 12.06@119 slip from this AM. WMI is not active, just extra weight being lugged around.

Second, you're excluding the hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars of labor required to install his modifications. And the same again to go back to stock later. Meanwhile as you know the JB4 installs (and removes) in under 15 minutes. You should also include some of the cost of hearing aids he'll need in the future from driving around like that.

Then there are some issues with the numbers themselves. The rims+tires were $2100, but if we're playing this game I just sold my stock 19" rims/tires for $1500 so it's a $600 net upgrade. The JB4+fuel wires+connect kit is $599. BMS intake will probably be around $400. I have effectively no labor costs (neither would a customer) because this is all stuff anyone can quickly install and remove at home.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I've clearly stated why it's the case. If you want to prove otherwise feel free to. It's not even that you need to design a piggyback to avoid detection, it's a byproduct of how a piggyback works. If the ECU doesn't think the tuning is all stock then things won't work right.

So then your official statement is the JB4 will never be detected by Kia Dealership and will never void warranty... Would you care to add that to your Terms of Agreement and or Conditions. If that's the case this should be a huge selling point for you and if it isn't people could just come to you for the $ if did. Im curious to why your ToC say the opposite and I quote:

"WITHOUT LIMITATION TO THE FORGOING: (I) PURCHASER EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGES THAT USE OF THE PRODUCT MAY VOID ANY OR ALL WARRANTIES APPLICABLE TO ANY VEHICLE IN WHICH A PRODUCT IS INSTALLED AND PURCHASER AGREES TO RELEASE, INDEMNIFY AND TO HOLD SELLER HARMLESS FROM ANY CLAIMS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RELATED TO OR ARISING OUT OF ANY VOIDED WARRANTIES RELATED TO OUR ARISING OUT OF USE OF A PRODUCT; (II) PURCHASER EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGES THAT PRODUCTS MAY CAUSE DAMAGE TO ANY VEHICLE IN WHICH SUCH PRODUCTS ARE INSTALLED AND PURCHASER AGREES TO RELEASE, INDEMNIFY AND TO HOLD SELLER HARMLESS FROM ANY CLAIMS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RELATED TO OR ARISING OUT OF ANY DAMAGE TO A VEHICLE ALLEGEDLY CAUSED BY A PRODUCT; AND, (III) PURCHASER EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGES AND HEREBY AGREES THAT PURCHASER IS FAMILIAR WITH AND AGREES TO COMPLY WITH ANY LAWS, RULES OR REGULATIONS RELATED TO PRODUCTS ("APPLICABLE LAWS") AND PURCHASER AGREES TO RELEASE, INDEMNIFY AND TO HOLD SELLER HARMLESS FROM ANY CLAIMS RELATED TO OR ARISING OUT OF ANY ALLEGATION THAT PURCHASER FAILED TO COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE LAWS. "

Then there are some issues with the numbers themselves. The rims+tires were $2100, but if we're playing this game I just sold my stock 19" rims/tires for $1500 so it's a $600 net upgrade. The JB4+fuel wires+connect kit is $599. BMS intake will probably be around $400. I have effectively no labor costs (neither would a customer) because this is all stuff anyone can quickly install and remove at home.

Guess I should ask Tork what he scrapped any of the Cats for and minus that to the total as well then... Terry youre starting to have crap just fall out of your mouth.