Bye bye Stinger

[Waynerm002]

I like the look of the G70 as well, it just suck that they made it so small inside when the rest of the market has been increasing in size. I was certain they would have made something with the space of the Elantra/Forte, that would trump the others in size plus performance (that we know it has now) would take it a step above. The S4 us ugly in my eyes, the S5 Sportback on the other hand would be my pick and based on performance for dollars, i'm right back at the Stinger. Now, I'll have to look into suspension bits that can get me close to the G70's ride and drive feel while improving the handling. Wasn't planning on much mods but it looks like I'll end up doing that as I keep coming back to the reasons to get another.

 

[robz32]

Then it sounds like you maybe a set of springs away from making the stinger feel like the G70, perhaps some sway bars too, or just the sway bars if snow is a concern.

 

[Kamauxx]

I like the look of the G70 as well, it just suck that they made it so small inside when the rest of the market has been increasing in size. I was certain they would have made something with the space of the Elantra/Forte, that would trump the others in size plus performance (that we know it has now) would take it a step above. The S4 us ugly in my eyes, the S5 Sportback on the other hand would be my pick and based on performance for dollars, i'm right back at the Stinger. Now, I'll have to look into suspension bits that can get me close to the G70's ride and drive feel while improving the handling. Wasn't planning on much mods but it looks like I'll end up doing that as I keep coming back to the reasons to get another.

I'm not a fan of the S4s looks either. I don't think it's ugly but it does leave me wanting more.

I do like the looks of the S5 and S6. My problem with the S5 is space and the 2+2 seating. My biggest gripe with the S6 is its similarities to the Stinger's performance for way more money and less usable cargo space (my dog fits in the Stinger's hatch. He probably wouldn't like the S6s trunk).

This should be an exciting time for you. There's so many good vehicles to check out. Enjoy the shopping.

 

[MerlintheMad]

"If snow is a concern"?! That's what killed Wayne's car.
This thread is the most current discussion of sway bars and stiffer springs: Eibach's springs & sway bar kit soft setting.....sucks!!

 

[robz32]

@MerlintheMad From what I could gather, it was the choice in tires that played the bigger part in the accident. He even said that if the car had winter specific tires it could've fared better.

 

[Waynerm002]

It certainly was a traction issue, or rather lack of. I'm already sourcing a winter setup for the next ride, i'm fairly sure it will fit which ever I choose.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Come on, guys, don't be blaming the tires. We already know that ice will also sabotage winter treads; the difference in grip is negligible on Ice, because 10 MPH around your typical ninety degree bend in a subdivision, for instance, is too fast. Why "10 MPH?" Because that is the Tire Rack test speed. The video on the ice rink

shows the winters making it around a predetermined curvature at a predetermined radius and speed of 10 MPH. The A/S would make that turn a few miles per hour slower; and the winter tires would slide into the curb if the speed were a few miles per hour above 10 MPH. The point of the test should not be: "I will get winter tires and no worries!" The core point of the video should be: I will stay well within the safe speed of the tires I have. We know forum members who have already gone last winter on their Michelins. And some are braving the current winter on their summer tires. They should educate themselves with videos like this one and drive accordingly.

 

[SteveCo]

the difference in grip is negligible on Ice

That is incorrect. Two entirely different rubber compounds, designed for two different temperature ranges and driving conditions. A winter tire has significantly better traction on ice than an all season, as it remains flexible where the A/S tire stiffens and becomes hard.

Despite the best intentions, nobody can anticipate every change in a road surface, or the behavior of other drivers, pedestrians, etc. In those cases a mechanical grip advantage can save the day.

 

[Waynerm002]

Come on Merlin, I have been driving for years in snow with both AS and Winter tires and I can tell you having a set of Winters on my RWD BMW got me through all sorts of storms without getting stuck or having an accident. I wasn't over-driving the conditions as some might think, the tires didn't have the traction to stop or slow the car for the amount of space and time it took to reach the tree. If anyone was out with summer tires in that, they would have to abandon their vehicle. I should have gone with winters but I didn't, I should have remembered the car had paddle shifters and not try to use the electronic stick to down shift. Needless to say, the accident occurred. I love the tires and how comfortable they made the car feel but I have had other all season tires that performed a lot better in winter weather. Seeing as how winters are not getting better, I plan on getting a set of winter tires on the next one.

 

[eflyguy]

Come on, guys, don't be blaming the tires.

This is out of line given everything the OP has shared here, especially considering he admitted he should have gone with full winters vs. A/S.

 

[MerlintheMad]

The video is a tightly controlled set of predetermined conditions. Of course the ice performance of the Winter tire is going to look dramatically better. It isn't! Real Life conditions are too variable and unknown going in.

Tire Rack's 10 MPH curve test is the least likely to manifest in the real world. Most likely, either both tires are going to make the curve, or neither of them are. That's because the speed that the curve is actually capable of being successfully negotiated is too slow for drivers approaching casually; they will be caught by a skid, and collect the curb (and hopefully no more than that!); or they will let off the gas and counter-steer and then proceed, because they were only a little bit too fast; the A/S driver will be warned to slow down; the Winter tires driver will too, but will have less adjustment to make.

(We can dismiss the Summer tires driver as nuts; but even s/he can make that corner, too far back there to even show up in an A/S or Winter driver's rear view mirror.)

That is incorrect. Two entirely different rubber compounds, designed for two different temperature ranges and driving conditions. A winter tire has significantly better traction on ice than an all season, as it remains flexible where the A/S tire stiffens and becomes hard.

The flexibility factor is real. But the driver awareness/skill is the predominant factor. Relying on winter tires to prevent a skid on ice is a false confidence. No tire does not skid on ice. To look at the Tire Rack video, you would think that only winter tires don't skid. You would, if you don't take the correct lesson: which is to know your tires and stay well within their capabilities.

Despite the best intentions, nobody can anticipate every change in a road surface, or the behavior of other drivers, pedestrians, etc. In those cases a mechanical grip advantage can save the day.

The same argument can be made for winter tires on a dry and above freezing surface. Stopping power is reduced compared to A/S or Summer tires. Cornering performance is far less and a winter tire can betray a driver anticipating better performance. It comes down to the driver knowing his tire's limits and staying well within them; especially when s/he is unsure of grip; then it comes down to driving a lot slower and maintaining a lot more distance than usual.

 

[MerlintheMad]

@Waynerm002 you killed your car and that HURTS me, a lot. I am not being critical of you personally. But I don't want this to be dropped as some kind of comparison of tires being the answer to a future situation. So please stay with me on this:

Nobody can replicate your accident and win an argument here. The tree won the "argument".

I know that talking about tires is tangential to the reality; which is speed. You were going too fast. I'm not sorry to keep insisting on this. Your new car with winter tires is not going to skid proof you. If you go too fast you'll lose another argument with another tree.

You were going too fast for these tires in those conditions. And you did not know it till too late. How can you argue against this? "Ah slipped up", is never removed from any driver's "repertoire" of reasons for an accident. Decades of winter driving experience won't change a thing.

Pointing out other A/Ss that grip better than these tires is pointless. Tires are not created equal. So it behooves the driver to find out how a new (unfamiliar) set of tires behave before being able to say, "I wasn't over-driving the conditions."

Quite possibly your rehearsal of experiences with other cars and A/S and winter tires is actually contributory to your not getting a feel for the Nitto Motivos. You have too much experience! Your expectations going in were higher than these tires on this car would allow, but now you know.

And now I know to be even more careful than I was being.

The tires don't have a weakness: they have a capability. Once I know what that is (and I have a pretty good "grip" on that by now ), I will have pushed them too far, if I discover this on the open road (an ice rink or empty parking lot could prove useful, as always). I have yet to drive on solid ice; or up and down hills on fresh snow. Knowing this lack will make me very cautious when these conditions occur.

Of course I can slip up too; find myself going too fast for existing conditions: but only if I drive too fast or take a road I ought to sensibly avoid in the first place. There are downhill stretches around here that I would not try on anything less than studded tires, and even then with trepidation. Winter driving eliminates some routes. Period.

Finally: thank you very, very much for sharing your unfortunate experience. We should all be inclined to be better drivers because of what we can all learn from this.

 

[Waynerm002]

It's easy to comment as an observer after the fact. Let's just hope no one else ends up in this sort of situation, with the sort of conditions I encountered, with any AS tire that is lacking grip. I have driven on AS tires that behave like winter tires (Pirelli P7 AS+) and a lot that don't.
While winter tires don't guarantee 100% traction in all winter conditions, they would have certainly done better than those did in that scenario, speaking from my experience with them earlier. I gave the these tires a shot, as a 3 season tires they did well, I'll pass on them for winter use in the future.

 

[GRStinger]

Not going to tit-for-tat on individual posts, but I gotta say as someone who has lived and driven my whole life near/above latitude 45 in the Great Lakes area, including areas that average over 200" of snow/year, that there is absolutely no substitute for good winter tires in real-world every-day winter conditions. Yes, you have to understand the limits of the vehicle and the tires in snow/ice and adjust your driving as necessary, but the traction and handling of just-decent winter tires vs. a really good new set of A/S is night-and-day. They are just much "stickier". As for driving on ice - like a hockey rink - all bets off. You'll start from a stop better and get more grip with winter's, but there's no getting around the laws of physics.

 

[eflyguy]

I just think when someone has experience in those conditions, breaks their car, then admits they had the wrong tires on, I tend to trust their judgement. It's not like he was saying they were supposed to be good in those conditions, he admits it was a bit of a gamble, and isn't trying to place blame on anything but his decision.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Well, I'll just add one more time (since it seems to be getting ignored or overlooked) that no matter what tires you have you'll need to find out how they grip in icy conditions sooner or later.

Hanging the back end out or doing four wheel drifts is not a good way to test a tire, imho. The first time around a corner should ideally produce no skid: you've kept speed down enough. Next time if you skid it should only be a bit. Backing off the gas and maybe a mild downshift should restore control.

Now you know pretty well how much speed to shave off to avoid skidding in the first place. No deliberate fooling around with skidding through turns should be engaged in! Tell that to a kid and he'll turn a deaf ear. Tell that to a seasoned winter driver and he'll either nod knowingly or let you know in so many words that he's good enough he doesn't have to be told how to drive through a skid, thank you.

Short version is: know the speed for each condition and stay well within/under it.

 

[Waynerm002]

Well look what I found! This is just about similar to how things happened that night of the accident, watch the last portion of the video. Difference is by the time I corrected and got it straight, there was not enough grip or room to stop and the car just went straight to the tree.

 

[MerlintheMad]

And you weren't on "grippy" snow either. Your description was of ice flakes dropping and coating the road, not nice large sticky flakes. The narrator said "A lot, lot less grip" once the snow is packed down and polished. You had instantaneous conditions like that. Literally the "perfect storm" for iced conditions falling from the sky. The Tire Rack video shows a ten MPH corner on snow tires; which means you'd have to already be going ten MPH to make the corner without any need for correction. Me, following up on the Motivos at ten MPH would have to get off the gas and counter steer; I'd be okay as long as I wasn't doing more than 10, and maybe I'd still avoid the curb if I wasn't doing much over 10; but that can't be known. If you entered the corner higher than 10 you'd have to counter steer without throttle. I doubt that downshifting would be an option at that point: downshifting has to come in anticipation of a cornering situation. This guy says nothing about downshifting; the entire demonstration was in second gear.

Well look what I found! This is just about similar to how things happened that night of the accident, watch the last portion of the video. Difference is by the time I corrected and got it straight, there was not enough grip or room to stop and the car just went straight to the tree.

 

[Waynerm002]

Nope, wasn't in manual mode, just a thought of what to do since the brakes wasn't doing anything and I did apply throttle counter the first skid and wasn't going 10 mph to begin with. Had no issue until that section. Anyhow, it's done and over with. Got snow tires coming just need a vehicle to put them on.

 

[SteveCo]

Got snow tires coming just need a vehicle to put them on.

A very wise decision for your neck of the woods. The fact remains that IF you'd had snow tires on you would have had better traction that you had with the A/S tires, everything else being the same - and possibly avoided crunching your car.

Driving to current conditions is a must. However, anticipating every conceivable change in road conditions, and 'possible' emergency situations, is an impossibility IRL - when the unexpected happens (and it will), having the best tools to deal with is just smart planning.