Buying a piggyback... what one?

[washguy]

Zyro So which tuner box or ecu flash do you have in your ride? simple question from a toxic user ....btw I smoked a Mustang 5.0 a few weeks back .... Wash

 

[ScottM]

Scott I also posted this in another post...did you not read it fully?
This is the post im referring to....This one about the Sizzle .....then theres another my post about the Racechips website....which I wont even bother to quote
This post about the sizzle is mine ,NOT Terry's......this is the post where you took me ,and a post from Terry ( his post) and merged them into a choose this or that challenge post from you ...."sizzle or steak?" Now do you get it? Terry had nothing to do with my post Wash

Actually I did read your post fully as well as the vendors. FYI, at the top of the posts that are quoted...it says who said what. That's the cool thing about the quoting option on this website! Now do you get it?

And it's not a "Terry" thing or a "Washguy" thing...it's the vendor (BMS) saying that they are like iPhone (which I think is all flash/sizzle) and you saying they (BMS) are not sizzle. SEE!!

No matter, I was just pointing out the steak and sizzle thing and... oh well, good luck! Scott

 

[MisterMac]

It's not sizzle. It's not steak. It's trickery. It's false. It's fake. Sure, piggy-back options produce more power than stock, yet can you quantify the costs? Maybe you save some money buying the piggy-back versus the real-deal ECU tune. Maybe you don't throw a code. Maybe you can remove it and dishonestly pursue a warranty claim when your piggy-back breaks something. Maybe not.... Then you pay the real price for tricking your cars computer sensors. Downtime, costly repairs. The feeling of always looking over your shoulder, unsure of what is going to break next...

Do yourself a favor: Skip all the piggy-back options and get your car fully tuned by a reputable programmer/tuner like PRESSERTech; or leave it stock, or trade your Stinger for something hellaciously fast from the factory.

 

[Kamauxx]

Ermahgawd.

 

[Angel]

It's not sizzle. It's not steak. It's trickery. It's false. It's fake. Sure, piggy-back options produce more power than stock, yet can you quantify the costs? Maybe you save some money buying the piggy-back versus the real-deal ECU tune. Maybe you don't throw a code. Maybe you can remove it and dishonestly pursue a warranty claim when your piggy-back breaks something. Maybe not.... Then you pay the real price for tricking your cars computer sensors. Downtime, costly repairs. The feeling of always looking over your shoulder, unsure of what is going to break next...

Do yourself a favor: Skip all the piggy-back options and get your car fully tuned by a reputable programmer/tuner like PRESSERTech; or leave it stock, or trade your Stinger for something hellaciously fast from the factory.

 

[washguy]

Mrmac .. talking bout trickery....all i see from pressurtech is smoke and mirrors
Bring it on quit.pimpin and start racing. .lol.... . . .wash

 

[Kato_the_kia_stinger]

Didn’t either they or Racechip say that they would have track times from this weekend?

 

[Kamauxx]

Didn’t either they or Racechip say that they would have track times from this weekend?

RaceChip doesn't post track times.

One of their customers may have said that...

 

[Kato_the_kia_stinger]

RaceChip doesn't post track times.

One of their customers may have said that...

I hope someone does. And I don’t want track times with that and another four grand in bolt ons, as it’s hard to see what is really giving the increase in performance.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

It's not sizzle. It's not steak. It's trickery. It's false. It's fake. Sure, piggy-back options produce more power than stock, yet can you quantify the costs? Maybe you save some money buying the piggy-back versus the real-deal ECU tune. Maybe you don't throw a code. Maybe you can remove it and dishonestly pursue a warranty claim when your piggy-back breaks something. Maybe not.... Then you pay the real price for tricking your cars computer sensors. Downtime, costly repairs. The feeling of always looking over your shoulder, unsure of what is going to break next...

Do yourself a favor: Skip all the piggy-back options and get your car fully tuned by a reputable programmer/tuner like PRESSERTech; or leave it stock, or trade your Stinger for something hellaciously fast from the factory.

Wow. How much is presserrtech paying you to spread this misinformation.

Pressertech makes a great product, but what you’re saying about piggybacks is incorrect and applies more to ECU tunes than chips.

Think about it logically. Chips leave the stock ECU safety protections in place which is why they still hit overboost & torque limits, etc.

As pressertech said themselves, tuners have to literally “crack” Kia’s secured encryptions to break into the ECU programming. Only then can they alter or remove Kia’s limits to achieve more power. That means tuners are trading safety for maximum gains.

Those occasional CELs piggybacks get are Kia’s own protections and are there for good reason! You’re much more likely to harm your engine exceeding Kia’s limits using a ECU tune, than a chip.

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

Basically your giving up a 10yr/100m warranty to have an ECU tune with a little more power vs a safer, less expensive and convenient piggyback option that keeps your warranty in place. As much as most people want more power I don’t see that justifying all those extra concerns and restrictions for the average person.

Again ECU tunes are great products, especially for those wanting to push their Stingers to the max. But for anyone leasing, or wanting to still use Kia for services piggybacks are the only option.

Unless you’re trying to break records a chip is a better, safer and less expensive choice for 9/10 users.

So your statements are mostly true but they just apply to ECU tunes not necessarily piggybacks.

 

[Never thought]

Wow. How much is presserrtech paying you to spread this misinformation.

Pressertech makes a great product, but what you’re saying about piggybacks is incorrect and applies more to ECU tunes than chips.

Think about it logically. Chips leave the stock ECU safety protections in place which is why they still hit overboost & torque limits, etc.

As pressertech said themselves, tuners have to literally “crack” Kia’s secured encryptions to break into the ECU programming. Only then can they alter or remove Kia’s limits to achieve more power. That means tuners are trading safety for maximum gains.

Those occasional CELs piggybacks get are Kia’s own protections and are there for good reason! You’re much more likely to harm your engine exceeding Kia’s limits using a ECU tune, than a chip.

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

Basically your giving up a 10yr/100m warranty to have an ECU tune with a little more power vs a safer, less expensive and convenient piggyback option that keeps your warranty in place. As much as most people want more power I don’t see that justifying all those extra concerns and restrictions for the average person.

Again ECU tunes are great products, especially for those wanting to push their Stingers to the max. But for anyone leasing, or wanting to still use Kia for services piggybacks are the only option.

Unless you’re trying to break records a chip is a better, safer and less expensive choice for 9/10 users.

So your statements are mostly true but they just apply to ECU tunes not necessarily piggybacks.

With all do respect, I think you’re making a lot of assumptions about tuning being less safe than a piggy back. Obviously, whether a piggy back or tune is safe depends on the manufacturer. But I don’t think Kia will/can void your warranty bringing a tuned car in for an oil change. I am pretty sure they don’t analyze your ECU when you take it in for a normal service. if you blow an engine, then probably.

 

[Kato_the_kia_stinger]

Wow. How much is presserrtech paying you to spread this misinformation.

Pressertech makes a great product, but what you’re saying about piggybacks is incorrect and applies more to ECU tunes than chips.

Think about it logically. Chips leave the stock ECU safety protections in place which is why they still hit overboost & torque limits, etc.

As pressertech said themselves, tuners have to literally “crack” Kia’s secured encryptions to break into the ECU programming. Only then can they alter or remove Kia’s limits to achieve more power. That means tuners are trading safety for maximum gains.

Those occasional CELs piggybacks get are Kia’s own protections and are there for good reason! You’re much more likely to harm your engine exceeding Kia’s limits using a ECU tune, than a chip.

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

Basically your giving up a 10yr/100m warranty to have an ECU tune with a little more power vs a safer, less expensive and convenient piggyback option that keeps your warranty in place. As much as most people want more power I don’t see that justifying all those extra concerns and restrictions for the average person.

Again ECU tunes are great products, especially for those wanting to push their Stingers to the max. But for anyone leasing, or wanting to still use Kia for services piggybacks are the only option.

Unless you’re trying to break records a chip is a better, safer and less expensive choice for 9/10 users.

So your statements are mostly true but they just apply to ECU tunes not necessarily piggybacks.

With all do respect, I think you’re making a lot of assumptions about tuning being less safe than a piggy back. Obviously, whether a piggy back or tune is safe depends on the manufacturer. But I don’t think Kia will/can void your warranty bringing a tuned car in for an oil change. I am pretty sure they don’t analyze your ECU when you take it in for a normal service. if you blow an engine, then probably.

I think it is important to remember that manufacturer warranties are not easily voided, per se, but there is a risk when tuning or modifying your car. If a component fails in your car after having tuned or modified it, that failure may not be covered if the manufacturer can prove that the failure was a direct result of your modifications. The burden of proof is on them. And if they can prove that your turbo blew as a result of the PSI increases provided by an ecu tune or chip, you will likely be stuck with the bill. Nevertheless, your warranty remains in effect. It is nearly impossible for a manufacturer to void a warrenty, full stop. Please be careful not to spread the false generalizations—or please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Doel]

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

I don't have a dog in the fight, but as I understand it, the ECU tunes use your own ECU so it'll have your Vin number and they aren't going to analyze your ECU when you get routine service done. Worst case scenario, if you bring it in for warranty work you could get your ECU turned back to stock before taking it in, it'll just take a couple extra days without the car.

On a side note, who really wants a steak now??

 

[Jwolf]

Wow. How much is presserrtech paying you to spread this misinformation.

Pressertech makes a great product, but what you’re saying about piggybacks is incorrect and applies more to ECU tunes than chips.

Think about it logically. Chips leave the stock ECU safety protections in place which is why they still hit overboost & torque limits, etc.

As pressertech said themselves, tuners have to literally “crack” Kia’s secured encryptions to break into the ECU programming. Only then can they alter or remove Kia’s limits to achieve more power. That means tuners are trading safety for maximum gains.

Those occasional CELs piggybacks get are Kia’s own protections and are there for good reason! You’re much more likely to harm your engine exceeding Kia’s limits using a ECU tune, than a chip.

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

Basically your giving up a 10yr/100m warranty to have an ECU tune with a little more power vs a safer, less expensive and convenient piggyback option that keeps your warranty in place. As much as most people want more power I don’t see that justifying all those extra concerns and restrictions for the average person.

Again ECU tunes are great products, especially for those wanting to push their Stingers to the max. But for anyone leasing, or wanting to still use Kia for services piggybacks are the only option.

Unless you’re trying to break records a chip is a better, safer and less expensive choice for 9/10 users.

So your statements are mostly true but they just apply to ECU tunes not necessarily piggybacks.

I think you are a bit misled in your interpretation of ECU vs Piggyback tunes. While it is entirely possible for a tuner to get rid of some safeties and limits (to get rid of every single one is almost impossible if you see how many files and maps are in a modern ECU), this is not where the benefit comes in. 99% of tuners won't do this because their customers will break their vehicles and then by word of mouth this tuner will lose their business.

Rather, most tuners who can crack the ECU code will then raise specific limiters and remap specific parameters so that the output of the engine can be increased. Without doing this effectively nothing would be accomplished unless you just wanted to change some things like launch RPM, speed limit, etc... The benefit to doing it this way is that the whole program works together, the way it was designed. The safety of a tune is entirely dependent on the capability and experience of the tuner. Someone could easily destroy things with an ECU tune, but this isn't normally the goal.

When you use a Piggyback, you are just "tricking" the ECU into thinking it hasn't reached it's limit yet. The effective ess here depends on what parameters the piggyback can modify and how exactly the stock program works to begin with. Every manufacturer uses different logic, safety, etc... even between models sometimes. Here again though, if the piggyback modifies the signal too far, the engine can be destroyed. It's easier to do with a piggyback though as the safeties are not functioning as a whole. The ECU will not tell the engine to scale back enough boost to avoid detonation if it doesn't know that the car is making 18 psi instead of 12. So again, the safety le vel of a piggyback depends on how far the piggyback manipulates these signals, and on the experience of the manufacturer to not overstep physical capabilities of the drivetrain.

Both can be equally safe, but I'd lean towards ECU tunes being safer (if both are trying to make equal power with all other factors kept equal), because the piggyback can't account for that 1/10,000 chance on a hot day when you are climbing a hill with bad gas and your engine is knock, knock, knocking away and the normal knock detection system can't function at it's fullest capacity because it thinks you are at 12 psi instead of 18.

 

[Oryan]

Wow. How much is presserrtech paying you to spread this misinformation.

Pressertech makes a great product, but what you’re saying about piggybacks is incorrect and applies more to ECU tunes than chips.

Think about it logically. Chips leave the stock ECU safety protections in place which is why they still hit overboost & torque limits, etc.

As pressertech said themselves, tuners have to literally “crack” Kia’s secured encryptions to break into the ECU programming. Only then can they alter or remove Kia’s limits to achieve more power. That means tuners are trading safety for maximum gains.

Those occasional CELs piggybacks get are Kia’s own protections and are there for good reason! You’re much more likely to harm your engine exceeding Kia’s limits using a ECU tune, than a chip.

Also ECUs are tied to each cars VIN number so Kia will know & void your warranty using a ECU tune. You can’t hide it or easily remove it yourself so you’re even losing the ability to use Kia for any services, even basic oil changes.That means if your Stinger breaks down on the road you can’t even have Kia tow it to their dealership because you’ll lose your warranty...

Basically your giving up a 10yr/100m warranty to have an ECU tune with a little more power vs a safer, less expensive and convenient piggyback option that keeps your warranty in place. As much as most people want more power I don’t see that justifying all those extra concerns and restrictions for the average person.

Again ECU tunes are great products, especially for those wanting to push their Stingers to the max. But for anyone leasing, or wanting to still use Kia for services piggybacks are the only option.

Unless you’re trying to break records a chip is a better, safer and less expensive choice for 9/10 users.

So your statements are mostly true but they just apply to ECU tunes not necessarily piggybacks.

...What?

Alright..holy.. So, to start...none of this is right. Piggybacks intercept and change parameters going into the ECU in order to trick the ECU into behaving in such a way that you end up with more power. The most simple piggybacks just clamp the boost signal going in and trick the ECU into building more boost and fuel/timing/cam profiles etc are left untouched and are left to the ECU to figure out getting everything else back in line. By the way, that's the main way a dealer can find that you used a piggyback; Inconsistent logs between boost, fueling and timing. JB4 and Pro-Tuner both use the same logic, but are more involved and trick more signals. How you came to the conclusion that lying to the ECU is objectively safer is interesting to say the least.

On to engine limits. You're right that the average piggyback can't touch ECU limits, however Lap3 and JB4 have communication with the ECU such that it may be possible for them to again, clamp the values these limits see so that they are effectively bypassed because the ECU won't see the limit reached, like Lap3 did with the speed limiter. But the speed limiter is one thing, the engine limits are what really matters and no tuner worth a damn will EVER change or bypass them. What's changed are the boost and fueling parameters the chips all alter, but instead of changing the numbers going in that the ECU uses to adjust to meet it's commanded targets, it changes those targets themselves, so the ECU actively seeks higher boost values using new boost tables, same as with fueling, timing, wastgate cycles and such. Instead of the computer being tricked into running 16 psi when the programming is looking for 12, the ECU commands 16 psi.

Read the Magnuson-Moss act. Nothing flat out "voids" a warranty.

The KDM tuner scene is not like other platforms. A lot of domestic, JDM and some Euro cars have tuners that you can flash with an OBD connection or have large enough markets that local tuners can easily dyno or bench flash a car for the price or less, than most of these piggybacks are going for. The smaller size of the KDM aftermarket and the difficulty in cracking Hyundai/Kia ECUs makes a lot of tuners less willing to undertake the time and resources to do so when returns may not be guaranteed. So while tunes are more expensive and I won't fault anyone for going with a good piggyback if they aren't trying to go very far with the car or know they won't have it long, a lot of what you posted is at best misinformed and at worst just wrong.

 

[Jwolf]

...What?

Alright..holy.. So, to start...none of this is right. Piggybacks intercept and change parameters going into the ECU in order to trick the ECU into behaving in such a way that you end up with more power. The most simple piggybacks just clamp the boost signal going in and trick the ECU into building more boost and fuel/timing/cam profiles etc are left untouched and are left to the ECU to figure out getting everything else back in line. By the way, that's the main way a dealer can find that you used a piggyback; Inconsistent logs between boost, fueling and timing. JB4 and Pro-Tuner both use the same logic, but are more involved and trick more signals. How you came to the conclusion that lying to the ECU is objectively safer is interesting to say the least.

On to engine limits. You're right that the average piggyback can't touch ECU limits, however Lap3 and JB4 have communication with the ECU such that it may be possible for them to again, clamp the values these limits see so that they are effectively bypassed because the ECU won't see the limit reached, like Lap3 did with the speed limiter. But the speed limiter is one thing, the engine limits are what really matters and no tuner worth a damn will EVER change or bypass them. What's changed are the boost and fueling parameters the chips all alter, but instead of changing the numbers going in that the ECU uses to adjust to meet it's commanded targets, it changes those targets themselves, so the ECU actively seeks higher boost values using new boost tables, same as with fueling, timing, wastgate cycles and such. Instead of the computer being tricked into running 16 psi when the programming is looking for 12, the ECU commands 16 psi.

Read the Magnuson-Moss act. Nothing flat out "voids" a warranty.

The KDM tuner scene is not like other platforms. A lot of domestic, JDM and some Euro cars have tuners that you can flash with an OBD connection or have large enough markets that local tuners can easily dyno or bench flash a car for the price or less, than most of these piggybacks are going for. The smaller size of the KDM aftermarket and the difficulty in cracking Hyundai/Kia ECUs makes a lot of tuners less willing to undertake the time and resources to do so when returns may not be guaranteed. So while tunes are more expensive and I won't fault anyone for going with a good piggyback if they aren't trying to go very far with the car or know they won't have it long, a lot of what you posted is at best misinformed and at worst just wrong.

As far as I'm aware the modern piggyback's suppress the actual values from the ECU. They alter them to be lower so the ECU scales them up, but the ECU never knows the actual values. This is less safe, but makes it more difficult for manufacturer's to detect anything. The way they detect it now is by accelerations based on time and fuel trims.

 

[Terry@BMS]

A benefit with flash tuning is you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. A drawback is that you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. You have more flexibility but it's also a lot easier for things to go sideways. Especially in situations like this where the platform isn't highly developed, you can't load/change flash maps at home, the flash tuners are not providing the proper logging tools to evaluate how the tuning is working for their customers over a wide range of conditions, and we don't yet know where all the platform weaknesses are.

A side benefit of a properly configured piggyback, like the JB4, is it can layer in extra safety systems that are not easy to implement flash only. Go to a safe tuning map if AFR goes too lean, boost goes too high, timing drops are too severe, etc. Estimate E85 mixture using virtual logic and adjust tuning accordingly. Increase performance only as a function of water/meth flow for proper safety in the event water/meth isn't flowing properly. etc. . Logical changes are very difficult to implement via flash tuning and normally only come around when platforms are highly developed and very large companies get involved.

 

[Angel]

A benefit with flash tuning is you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. A drawback is that you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. You have more flexibility but it's also a lot easier for things to go sideways. Especially in situations like this where the platform isn't highly developed, you can't load/change flash maps at home, the flash tuners are not providing the proper logging tools to evaluate how the tuning is working for their customers over a wide range of conditions, and we don't yet know where all the platform weaknesses are.

A side benefit of a properly configured piggyback, like the JB4, is it can layer in extra safety systems that are not easy to implement flash only. Go to a safe tuning map if AFR goes too lean, boost goes too high, timing drops are too severe, etc. Estimate E85 mixture using virtual logic and adjust tuning accordingly. Increase performance only as a function of water/meth flow for proper safety in the event water/meth isn't flowing properly. etc. . Logical changes are very difficult to implement via flash tuning and normally only come around when platforms are highly developed and very large companies get involved.

First let me state that I own a JB4, do I think a piggyback tune is better than an actual ECU tune? Of course not, nobody in their right mind should think that...ECU tune is better all day long in all shapes and forms.....Now this is the reality the Kia Stinger is so new that I dont trust any of the companies that have ECU tunes out yet....Example PreserrTech does not even have the Stinger ECU tune for purchase on their website....PreserTech claims that there is no need to gap the spark plugs or change them and that is a bit concerning with the issues many of us have had the minute the turn the boost up....Presertech wont even tell you what parameters there adjusting or what there doing to the ECU....so let me make this clear you are tuning my 45K+ car and you are not telling what is being done...come on guys lets be real here its not Presertech fault just like any company they are tackling something completely new and have no real actual long term testing........Same goes for Tork Motorsports they sell you on all this points and things you want to hear .... we all stinger owners being such car people whenever someones comes out and says anything we jump up like a little at the candy store because there is not much yet for the stinger....we all are lab rats when it comes to these companies and there aftermarket parts.....right now the JB4 is a great choice because all of the uncertainty of actual ECU tunes........but done the road once companies actually put some research money and time in ECU tuning and customers have good long term results with them, then I will tell you that there is no piggy that includes the JB4 that will be better than an ECU tune and if Terry tell you otherwise its a bunch of BS....He is supposed to stand by product and we need to respect that, I got to tell you something the support Terry has behind his product is amazing i never seen a company like the JB4 .....there amazing company....I will patiently wait for more updates to come for the JB4 and next year I will get a tune once there is more research and actual data supporting ECU tunes for the stinger.....

 

[Terry@BMS]

First let me state that I own a JB4, do I think a piggyback tune is better than an actual ECU tune?

I think you're asking the wrong question. The JB4 is a tuning tool, one that works with factory flash mapping just as well as it does with aftermarket flash mapping. In fact many of the fastest platforms we work with use the JB4 for a specific set of features layered on top of flash tuning changes. Because at the end of the day there are certain things that can only be done by flashing, other things that can only be done with an intelligent programmable system like the JB4, and you benefit by having both to optimize performance, safety, and convenience.

 

[Angel]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The JB4 is a tuning tool, one that works with factory flash mapping just as well as it does with aftermarket flash mapping. In fact many of the fastest platforms we work with use the JB4 for a specific set of features layered on top of flash tuning changes. Because at the end of the day there are certain things that can only be done by flashing, other things that can only be done with an intelligent programmable system like the JB4, and you benefit by having both to optimize performance, safety, and convenience.

Amen Brother !!!! No arguments here.....Once I get an ECU tune I will make sure I keep my JB4 LOL.....FYI I am extremely happy with my JB4 and your support, so keep supporting the community and providing updates please...