Buying a piggyback... what one?

[Terry@BMS]

So I took a moment to check out the Lap3Pro tuner install guide just posted to see what all the hype is about. Hopefully my thoughts don't come across as overly negative but the forum has been slow today. So let's stir it up a bit.

1) Removed comment, PDF guide posted did not show any CANbus connection. Their revised guide does.
2) Does not appear to have software setup for logging and analysis. No wonder no one has been posting them -- they can't.
3) Rather than pull engine speed off CANbus they've decided to run a long wire down to the CPS sensor. Potential benefit is you could CPS offset with the connection but been there done that on our other applications and there are drawbacks including a major PITA to attach the connection. Our method for timing adjustment works just as well with fewer drawbacks.
4) Appears due to design to require a high current power input which is a separate wire you attach. But I don't see any mention of a corresponding ground. They must be sinking the power supply ground down the clean sensor/signal ground. Really bad idea.
5) Appears like they copied JB4's fuel control wiring, right down to the blue wire, and red posi-tap connections. lol. We at least pre-strip the JB4 wire for you.

 

[Angel]

So I took a moment to check out the Lap3Pro tuner install guide just posted to see what all the hype is about. Hopefully my thoughts don't come across as overly negative but the forum has been slow today. So let's stir it up a bit.

1) I don't see any interface for CANbus included which is required for safe higher power tuning. Without CANbus the tuner can't read AFR, fuel trims, ignition advance/knock, throttle, DSC requests, etc. Without it the tuner can't even tell how far the gas pedal is being pushed down! I don't understand why a tuning box at this level would even be released with such a critical feature not ready yet?
2) Without CANbus there is no mechanism to do real data logs. No wonder no one has been posting them -- they can't.
3) Rather than pull engine speed off CANbus they've decided to run a long wire down to the CPS sensor. Potential benefit is you could CPS offset with the connection but been there done that on our other applications and there are drawbacks including a major PITA to attach the connection. Our method for timing adjustment works just as well with fewer drawbacks.
4) Appears due to design to require a high current power input which is a separate wire you attach. But I don't see any mention of a corresponding ground. They must be sinking the power supply ground down the clean sensor/signal ground. Really bad idea.
5 Appears like they copied JB4's fuel control wiring, right down to the blue wire, and red posi-tap connections. lol. We at least pre-strip the JB4 wire for you.

ok can you explain why the numbers look better? They have a higher speed limiter which JB4 does not.....The hype and comments point to it being better than the JB4?

 

[Terry@BMS]

They have a speed limiter wire that requires you to cut a wire at your ECU and splice it in to their harness. Good luck reversing that. And as mentioned the JB4 can clamp the same speed signal but until we can confirm it's SAFE and will not cause unpredictable stability control behavior at very high speeds we can't release it. It's something we're looking in to.

In terms of the power output it looks to me like they are tuning with the same or fewer tools than the JB4 has so it can only be more aggressive settings, extra modifications, happier dyno machines, etc, if the results are better. A JB4 customer today sent in a dyno on the same machine a LAP3 customer used a few days ago and their power results were almost identical. So I think the power thing is all hype. They are both racing at the track tonight. I predict similar results.

Meanwhile, JB4 customers are using legitimate racing features like boost by gear to improve their 0-60 times and launches, logging to ensure the tuning is running safely, gas pedal tuning input so you don't get a partial throttle boost bomb, etc.

 

[brancky3]

ok can you explain why the numbers look better? They have a higher speed limiter which JB4 does not.....The hype and comments point to it being better than the JB4?

Numbers from different dynos cannot be compared as closely as you think. But, the lap3 dynos all include a primary downpipe which should tremendously increase power - I don't think I've seen a straightforward dyno from lap3 without including downpipes.

 

[Jwolf]

So I took a moment to check out the Lap3Pro tuner install guide just posted to see what all the hype is about. Hopefully my thoughts don't come across as overly negative but the forum has been slow today. So let's stir it up a bit.

1) I don't see any interface for CANbus included which is required for safe higher power tuning. Without CANbus the tuner can't read AFR, fuel trims, ignition advance/knock, throttle, DSC requests, etc. Without it the tuner can't even tell how far the gas pedal is being pushed down! I don't understand why a tuning box at this level would even be released with such a critical feature not ready yet?
2) Without CANbus there is no mechanism to do real data logs. No wonder no one has been posting them -- they can't.
3) Rather than pull engine speed off CANbus they've decided to run a long wire down to the CPS sensor. Potential benefit is you could CPS offset with the connection but been there done that on our other applications and there are drawbacks including a major PITA to attach the connection. Our method for timing adjustment works just as well with fewer drawbacks.
4) Appears due to design to require a high current power input which is a separate wire you attach. But I don't see any mention of a corresponding ground. They must be sinking the power supply ground down the clean sensor/signal ground. Really bad idea.
5 Appears like they copied JB4's fuel control wiring, right down to the blue wire, and red posi-tap connections. lol. We at least pre-strip the JB4 wire for you.

Are you 100% sure of all of your statements just by looking at their installation manual? Have you even spoken with a single Lap3 representative about any of this??

This is why I do not like you, and probably why a lot of others don't either. The fact that you are willing to stoop to this level and make these accusations without confirming with the manufacturer first says worlds about your integrity and desparation to get an advantage in this.

If they lose a single customer because of this statement and any of the i formation ends up false, I hope there is legal grounds for a libel case against you. I've taken screen shots of the whole conversation so feel free to delete your posts.

 

[Terry@BMS]

lol thanks for the legal advice.

My initial thoughts are based entirely on their published installation guide. They are marketing it as being more advanced than the JB4 which is why I feel free to share my comments as I review their guide. It also saves me from having to answer the same email 50x as JB4 customers ask me what the hype is all about.

This is a Stinger tuner discussion thread, in a Stinger discussion forum. If posts here trigger you so easily then this might just be the wrong place for you to spend your Wednesday night?

 

[Jwolf]

lol thanks for the legal advice.

My initial thoughts are based entirely on their published installation guide. They are marketing it as being more advanced than the JB4 which is why I feel free to share my comments as I review their guide. It also saves me from having to answer the same email 50x as JB4 customers ask me what the hype is all about.

This is a Stinger tuner discussion thread, in a Stinger discussion forum. If posts here trigger you so easily then this might just be the wrong place for you to spend your Wednesday night?

I know there will never actually be legal repercussions. But it would be satisfying in the 0.01% chance that it did happen.

Are you sure that you are interpreting the manual correctly? Have you discussed this with Lap3?

My point is, if we flip the coin, imagine a different manufacturer used your manual as a way to put out evidence that their product is superior to yours, even though they don't know 100% that the information they are spreading is true. Would you not be the slightest bit offended?

 

[Kato_the_kia_stinger]

Numbers from different dynos cannot be compared as closely as you think. But, the lap3 dynos all include a primary downpipe which should tremendously increase power - I don't think I've seen a straightforward dyno from lap3 without including downpipes.

This!

 

[Kato_the_kia_stinger]

So I took a moment to check out the Lap3Pro tuner install guide just posted to see what all the hype is about. Hopefully my thoughts don't come across as overly negative but the forum has been slow today. So let's stir it up a bit.

1) I don't see any interface for CANbus included which is required for safe higher power tuning. Without CANbus the tuner can't read AFR, fuel trims, ignition advance/knock, throttle, DSC requests, etc. Without it the tuner can't even tell how far the gas pedal is being pushed down! I don't understand why a tuning box at this level would even be released with such a critical feature not ready yet?
2) Without CANbus there is no mechanism to do real data logs. No wonder no one has been posting them -- they can't.
3) Rather than pull engine speed off CANbus they've decided to run a long wire down to the CPS sensor. Potential benefit is you could CPS offset with the connection but been there done that on our other applications and there are drawbacks including a major PITA to attach the connection. Our method for timing adjustment works just as well with fewer drawbacks.
4) Appears due to design to require a high current power input which is a separate wire you attach. But I don't see any mention of a corresponding ground. They must be sinking the power supply ground down the clean sensor/signal ground. Really bad idea.
5 Appears like they copied JB4's fuel control wiring, right down to the blue wire, and red posi-tap connections. lol. We at least pre-strip the JB4 wire for you.

I rather like this information. I don’t mind educated opinion and assumptions when so much of the literature surrounding that product is hidden. I like transparency, and I like to know exactly what I’m getting, but I need more the “how I am getting it.” And I also don’t much enjoy when dyno results and real life results don’t show the product’s individual potential. I like how JB4 showed dyno results a with just the tune so I can at least see an expected return on just the device. That being said, I trust that Lap3 is also selling a quality product with strong results.

 

[Never thought]

I know there will never actually be legal repercussions. But it would be satisfying in the 0.01% chance that it did happen.

Are you sure that you are interpreting the manual correctly? Have you discussed this with Lap3?

My point is, if we flip the coin, imagine a different manufacturer used your manual as a way to put out evidence that their product is superior to yours, even though they don't know 100% that the information they are spreading is true. Would you not be the slightest bit offended?

We get it, you don’t like the JB4 and you’re easily offended. Point made. Did you even read the title of this thread?

 

[xot1]

Are you 100% sure of all of your statements just by looking at their installation manual? Have you even spoken with a single Lap3 representative about any of this??

This is why I do not like you, and probably why a lot of others don't either. The fact that you are willing to stoop to this level and make these accusations without confirming with the manufacturer first says worlds about your integrity and desparation to get an advantage in this.

If they lose a single customer because of this statement and any of the i formation ends up false, I hope there is legal grounds for a libel case against you. I've taken screen shots of the whole conversation so feel free to delete your posts.

+1
If I was an admin on this forum I would have taken strong measures against this kind of behavior. I think manufacturers should stick to their product's thread and restrain themself from bashing other products, and even doing excessive marketing in neutral ground like this thread. You can compete fairly by just showing how your product performs without having to bash other 's products.

 

[Jwolf]

Just to clarify, I am not a fanboy for Lap3, nor am I a hater of the JB4. I have not ever, nor will I ever own products from either company.

Also, I have said this before and I'll say it again. The JB4 is an excellent product and has a following far larger than Lap3 could ever hope to have (at least currently). And, at the price point of each product, I think no matter which one ends up eeking out slightly more power the JB4 will always sell at least 30% more volume based solely on affordability and power to money ratio. The Pro Tuner may or may not be better in the end, and I don't really care.

My whole point here from my last two posts is this:
Terry can infer whatever he wants from the manual, and maybe some people believe Lap3 isn't being transparent, but the way that he worded his post makes it very easy for someone to misread his observations as facts. For every 100 readers of any post, at least 10 of them will read through a long post hastily and only take away part of the message, and at least another 10% will misinterpret information within the post due to speaking English as a second language or for other reasons. (Also, in this specific case, at least another 10% will take his word as fact because they have no idea what CANbus is or any of the other technical data that was stated.) So best case scenario, 20 out of 100 readers could interpret his statements as factual evidence, and if 2 out of those 20 are on the fence about which product to buy, they will choose the JB4 without looking back. In this scenario, Terry has just poached 2 hypothetical customers from his competition by publicly stating a negative observation that was based on no factual evidence. I know this is hypothetical, but Terry is a smart guy and he does this intentionally, and on a regular basis to poach business away from his competition.

To me, this is a very dishonest business strategy as well as an indecent human act. If you have a product you want to sell, sell it based on it's capabilities. Sell it because you truly believe it is the best and so do the people you sell it to. Don't sell it by relying on misinterpretation of what you say about your competition. I know a lot of people will not see it my way, and even some who do will still purchase his products which is fine with me. I just feel bad for the people that don't see that Terry uses every opportunity he can to manipulate them.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I know there will never actually be legal repercussions. But it would be satisfying in the 0.01% chance that it did happen.

Are you sure that you are interpreting the manual correctly? Have you discussed this with Lap3?

My point is, if we flip the coin, imagine a different manufacturer used your manual as a way to put out evidence that their product is superior to yours, even though they don't know 100% that the information they are spreading is true. Would you not be the slightest bit offended?

I see they just updated the PDF (I have the orignal posted one saved here), and in the orignal there isn't a CANbus connection. In the revised one there is. So I've updated my comments above accordingly.

The purpose of the thread is to openly discuss the tuning differences. I'll take the lead to correct any misconceptions about the JB4 as I'm sure they will take the lead to correct any misconceptions about their product.

 

[Kiacruzer]

@Terry@BMS since you seem so know so much you want to explain to the group what this is?

 

[Kamauxx]

View attachment 14242 @Terry@BMS since you seem so know so much you want to explain to the group what this is?

Did someone actually run to your FB/IG to tell you what Terry was writing here? Lmfao man this is hilarious. You're all behaving like a bunch of school girls.

You're a funny guy @Jwolf

 

[Terry@BMS]

View attachment 14242 Terry since you seem so know so much you want to explain to the group what this is?

The CANbus connection was not included in the PDF posted: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=75599102777974363950

They have subsequently updated their materials so I updated my comment.

 

[Kiacruzer]

Did someone actually run to your FB/IG to tell you what Terry was writing here? Lmfao man this is hilarious. You're all behaving like a bunch of school girls.

I’ve been a member since day one. But I also have a job and a life and don’t comment much unless I feel I need to.

The man does a post trying to shit on a company that is completely wrong in almost everything he said and I just posted a picture but I’m a school girl? Biased much?

 

[Terry@BMS]

I’ve been a member since day one. But I also have a job and a life and don’t comment much unless I feel I need to.

The man does a post trying to shit on a company that is completely wrong in almost everything he said and I just posted a picture but I’m a school girl? Biased much?

I updated the comment about the CANbus. Which of the other comments are inaccurate?

As you know a Lap3 Pro and JB4 car are out at the same track as we speak. Cars have similar mods, with the JB4 being RWD having to use boost by gear to limit boost on the launch for traction. These same two cars did dyno testing on the same dyno. So far their performance results are interesting.

 

[Kamauxx]

I’ve been a member since day one. But I also have a job and a life and don’t comment much unless I feel I need to.

The man does a post trying to shit on a company that is completely wrong in almost everything he said and I just posted a picture but I’m a school girl? Biased much?

Oh spare me the "I work and have a life" b.s. Your ass is constantly all over social media with pics and videos about things companies are giving you. There is literally no non-vendor on this forum who could possibly be more biased than you. Your opinion about a Stinger product is as valuable as LeBron's opinion about Nike or the Lakers.

And you didn't just randomly come here and see that post. Someone went and snitched to you, and you came to defend your car's honor. That shit is funny as hell, whether you like it or not.

 

[xot1]

We need to cool down a bit.
Let's keep this forum a nice place to be.