Poor ign timing on JB4 Map 1 with 93 octane plus booster?

[Mr. Tech]

Why would octaine booster even be needed on map 2 with 93 octane fuel?

It shouldn't be needed. That's kinda the point I'm getting at. Something else is wrong and I'm looking for feedback to figure out what it is. I just changed my spark plugs last night, and I'm going to try resetting my ECU tonight (unplugging battery for 30 minutes). We'll see where that puts me.

 

[Mr. Tech]

The "off the shelf" octane boosters don't boost octane that far. When they say 3-4 octane points, that means 0.3-0.4, not 3-4. Points means tenths, numbers means a whole number. If the octane booster doesn't provide mix ratios for different octane boosts, you can assume it's not going to boost it significantly. Simply saying it treats "up to 25 gallons" isn't very helpful as it won't raise octane the same amount in different amounts of fuel. Is it 3 points in 25 gallons or 3 points in 5 gallons?

Octane boosters like Torco will legitimately raise octane to 100+ depending on the ratio you mix it.

Thanks for the input, I got my numbers from 3rd party tests I found online, but the main point is that I shouldn't need any octane booster to run Map 2 with my mods as long as I'm running 93 pump gas. Though, I've seen plenty of people running fine on Map 2 with 91.

I included that information so people could see that it's clearly not an octane issue, even though thatst what people kept saying. I'm just looking for other things to check.

I just changed my spark plugs, well see what that does for me, but if you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears

 

[Tonkabob]

Thanks @Revvdmedia for digging into this for me! Do you know of anything that would cause a "long" shift? The difference of one cell sounds to me like it could just be a variance from car to car, but if you think there's some science behind that, I'm all ears.

And thanks @Tonkabob for the input! Also, you changed spark plugs at a drag strip? Took me an hour to change mine, not counting gapping. You should be in a pit crew or something haha.

I just saw this post from @Terry@BMS when I was researching spark plugs.
View attachment 30874

Son of a gun, this might be my problem. I used a gapper similar to the one Terry sells. However, looking closer at the picture for Terry's version, I see that it's rounded where it touches the electrode. The one I used isn't and I noticed it put a small cut into the top of at least one electrode. I noted it, and put the worst looking spark plug in cylinder 4 since it's the easiest to get out. Surprise surprise, cylinder 4 generally has the worst timing. I totally forgot about this until recently, when I saw that cyl 4 was one of the issues.

I also found out that I may have gotten knock-off Denso's from the company I ordered them from. I reached out to Denso yesterday to confirm whether or not they completely redesigned their plugs because the ones I got look nothing like the picture Denso has on their site. Mine don't have the blue rings and the post is dark grey, not brass colored. The text also looks slightly different.

I think the next steps for me are to buy new Densos direct from Denso, buy Terry's gapper, and replace my plugs. Hopefully that makes a considerable difference in the tightness of my timing. And who knows, maybe I'll start seeing performance that more closely matches other tuned Stingers.

During my track day i drove to my tuner 10 mins away and he regapped the plugs in 30 mins and back to the track.
A civic had oiled the track down so i didn't miss much.
Long shifting is common with piggy backs. Good ecu tune will fix or possibly even the brake snip will help. Heard one report of a poor shifting jb4 car shifts much better when snipped.

 

[xot1]

What is a long shift?

 

[Terry@BMS]

Thanks for the input, I got my numbers from 3rd party tests I found online, but the main point is that I shouldn't need any octane booster to run Map 2 with my mods as long as I'm running 93 pump gas. Though, I've seen plenty of people running fine on Map 2 with 91.

That sounds like a question for your petroleum refinery. The DME timing logging doesn't lie so your timing profile is following whatever profile your octane level allows for. That's just how it works.

 

[Tonkabob]

What is a long shift?

slow shift

 

[xot1]

slow shift

Does it refer to the latency between the moment you pull the paddle and the moment when the actual shifting occurs or just the fact of letting the engine rev high before shifting?

 

[Tonkabob]

Does it refer to the latency between the moment you pull the paddle and the moment when the actual shifting occurs or just the fact of letting the engine rev high before shifting?

Once the car decides to shift the shift itself takes time. Think off the power longer = bad.

 

[Manaz]

There's two aspects to shifting in an automatic gearbox:

1) How long the gearbox takes to acknowledge your request to change gears and start to act on it
2) How long the gearbox actually takes to perform the gearchange

The 8-speed auto in the Stinger (it's not a ZF, despite some publications stating it is, it's actually designed and manufactured box internally within Hyundai/Kia) is pretty quick for a torque-converter auto on both counts. In particular, as it's an eight-speed, there's not a lot of RPM variation between gears at a given speed, so there's less of a tendency to flare under changes (if you've driven an old 4-speed, there's that period between when one gear is exited and the next is selected where the revs can actually go up but the car isn't accelerating, before it slams into the next gear. The flaring is designed (at least partially) to ease the transition into the next gear by spreading the engagement out (thus torque applied per second is lower), but ultimately, if the gearbox is designed to take the likely torque outputs, you're actually better off with faster shifts and less burned out clutch packs).

I assume the impact the brake wire snip has on the speed of the shift as Tonka has noted is because under brakes, the ECU doesn't know that the car is actually braking, and the gearchanges it requests from the TCU are thereby faster actioned as well as executed?

 

[Tonkabob]

There's two aspects to shifting in an automatic gearbox:

1) How long the gearbox takes to acknowledge your request to change gears and start to act on it
2) How long the gearbox actually takes to perform the gearchange

The 8-speed auto in the Stinger (it's not a ZF, despite some publications stating it is, it's actually designed and manufactured box internally within Hyundai/Kia) is pretty quick for a torque-converter auto on both counts. In particular, as it's an eight-speed, there's not a lot of RPM variation between gears at a given speed, so there's less of a tendency to flare under changes (if you've driven an old 4-speed, there's that period between when one gear is exited and the next is selected where the revs can actually go up but the car isn't accelerating, before it slams into the next gear. The flaring is designed (at least partially) to ease the transition into the next gear by spreading the engagement out (thus torque applied per second is lower), but ultimately, if the gearbox is designed to take the likely torque outputs, you're actually better off with faster shifts and less burned out clutch packs).

I assume the impact the brake wire snip has on the speed of the shift as Tonka has noted is because under brakes, the ECU doesn't know that the car is actually braking, and the gearchanges it requests from the TCU are thereby faster actioned as well as executed?

When you add lots of power via piggyback and full bolt ons people are seeing slower than stock shifting and in some causes the car doesnt want to shift into the gear at all. Seems there may be some torque limiter thats no longer there with the snip. My car over boosts easier in higher gears when snipped which has nothing to do with the brake launch. I'm goimg to try a momentart switch next to see if i can get the launch with out the changes after the launch which in my case make me slower.

 

[Revvdmedia]

There's two aspects to shifting in an automatic gearbox:

1) How long the gearbox takes to acknowledge your request to change gears and start to act on it
2) How long the gearbox actually takes to perform the gearchange

The 8-speed auto in the Stinger (it's not a ZF, despite some publications stating it is, it's actually designed and manufactured box internally within Hyundai/Kia) is pretty quick for a torque-converter auto on both counts. In particular, as it's an eight-speed, there's not a lot of RPM variation between gears at a given speed, so there's less of a tendency to flare under changes (if you've driven an old 4-speed, there's that period between when one gear is exited and the next is selected where the revs can actually go up but the car isn't accelerating, before it slams into the next gear. The flaring is designed (at least partially) to ease the transition into the next gear by spreading the engagement out (thus torque applied per second is lower), but ultimately, if the gearbox is designed to take the likely torque outputs, you're actually better off with faster shifts and less burned out clutch packs).

I assume the impact the brake wire snip has on the speed of the shift as Tonka has noted is because under brakes, the ECU doesn't know that the car is actually braking, and the gearchanges it requests from the TCU are thereby faster actioned as well as executed?

The slow shifts some of us mention is not with manual shifting, it is happening on full automatic mode. The only definitive evidence I have is using the videos posted by others with tunes, there seems to be just a little more hesitation on the shift between first and second in my car compared to others. You can feel the car come off throttle (or so it feels) on the first to second gear change, but this doesn't happen in 2-3, 3-4, the shifts are quick and snappy in the higher gears, maybe this is because of the ECU reducing torque on gear changes from 1-2. Oddly enough the logs don't show any dips on throttle opening, the only indicator is the zero ignition advance on IGN1 between gear changes. Usually I see 2-3 cells of zero ignition from gear 1-2, sometimes 1 cell on gear 2-3 and pretty much never on gear 3-4. There may be more information regarding throttle dips but the JB4 log just doesn't have the resolution for it to show up since each cell appears to be about 1/10 second when posting raw data into a spreadsheet.

 

[Talloneus Khan]

Part of why I am excited for obd2 flash tuning is fixing the long shifts. In a quarter mile run, i can really feel it going 1-2 & 2-3. I honestly feel with the piggy back, its just how its wired in. Reason being, when I wired my meth kit into the jb4, i accidently put a dpin in the wrong spot on the jb4 plug. So, i left the jb4 harness wired in, with the jb4 unlpugged, snd went to try to drive to the local tech shop, for a dpin remover tool. And the shifts got really long, it was quite hilarious. I just plugged everything bsck in to sctually be able drive, aand everything was back to its regular, long shift, instead of the suuuuper long shift.