Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[ScottM]

This thread is so funny! It starts as "what's the difference between the two", then "which one is better", then "which vendor is better", then back to "which one is better" (which has been discussed in detail and that depends on the car owners needs at the moment and in the future).

I'm not a tuner or a car guy, I'm just a dude driving a car a I like. BUT...to understand what each does; ECU tune v piggyback is relatively easy if you pay attention to this thread or even a high level search via google or what have you. All I can say is, the old..."two ears, one mouth for a reason" thing.

 

[Angel]

This thread is so funny! It starts as "what's the difference between the two", then "which one is better", then "which vendor is better", then back to "which one is better" (which has been discussed in detail and that depends on the car owners needs at the moment and in the future).

I'm not a tuner or a car guy, I'm just a dude driving a car a I like. BUT...to understand what each does; ECU tune v piggyback is relatively easy if you pay attention to this thread or even a high level search via google or what have you. All I can say is, the old..."two ears, one mouth for a reason" thing.

Hahahaha Scott I think your funny like this thread....GTFOH !!!!

 

[ScottM]

Hahahaha Scott I think your funny like this thread....GTFOH !!!!

Well thanks!! You're funny too @Angel!!

 

[TorkMe]

I have made many attempts to address these exact problems with the piggy backs on many different platforms. I have given up and I have decided to wait it out. I am the only active member tuning this car on this forum. I have been insulted, attacked, DM'ed and followed on social media by Terry's supporters to a point that borders on liable/slander.

With that happening it has made me remove myself from this community and made people learn the hard way.

I have made every attempt to explain how the ECU works, just to have Terry say something about how BMW does it, and the community accepts that, lol.

What's the old saying, if it were so easy, everyone would be doing it? It appears its not so easy, lol.

So... we wait. We watch and when the time comes, proper tunes will be flying off the shelf.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I have made many attempts to address these exact problems with the piggy backs on many different platforms. I have given up and I have decided to wait it out. I am the only active member tuning this car on this forum. I have been insulted, attacked, DM'ed and followed on social media by Terry's supporters to a point that borders on liable/slander.

Piggybacks are tuning tools and no single tool is the solution to every problem. If we had EWG control built in to the Stinger JB4 already I'd tell him to lower base WGDC by 15% to confirm that resolves the issue. But it's not there yet. If you can easily do it on the flash side and he doesn't care about his warranty then sell him a flash that corrects base WGDC and call it a day.

While we plan to add JB4 EWG control to the Stinger in the future it's not in our development queue yet and I doubt he wants to wait around for 3 months for us to get to it.

 

[TorkMe]

It would be great if this thread contained facts, and is not the usual ECU tune vs piggyback fanboys fuckery

I've been taking to OP about this over last days. To help people understand this problem:
This is an issue with wastegate scaling on cars with electronic wastegates. WGDC is commanded by the ecu on its scaled map profile based on what duty cycle it thinks is going to need for a target torque/boost target.

The OEM mapping for EWG DC is profiled based on spool characteristics of the OEM DP and full Exhaust. Two things are happening here.
1. The cold air is denser so it makes more boost for a given wgdc. For example Air that is in the single digits F is 10% denser than even 32 degree temps. Meaning 10% more boost. The OEM iat modifier table usually accounts for this by dropping target boost for a given temp/airmass.
2. The full catless setup is making more boost, way faster for a given DC.

This is not the normal overboost suppression issue which piggy backs normally tackle easily by spoofing reported map signals back to ecu.

This is factory ecu commanding more DC than is actually required given the new spooling profile, thus overshooting it's " requested" torque/boost.

As far as I am aware, no current tuning solution either piggy back or flash tune can directly address the the root of the issue, which could only be addressed by either intercepting and directly controlling the ewg, or having access to the scaling tables for ewg control maps in the ecu.

What Jesse is asking in this thread is comments and feedback from
1. People who are catless
2. People who are in cold climates with DP
3. People who have both and are logging behaviors

I've had slightly similar issues, on occasion but only in initial spool, it levels out to normal levels of 19ish psi on map 3 jb4 in weather around 30-40 f. Given the snow and I live in the city, I've not had occasion to get hard runs in to see if I'm having the same level of issues that op is having. I'm going to try to get some runs in this -15 c weather and see what happens. Attached is screen cap of what we are discussing

LoL... you know what the WGA tables look like?

I am going to clue you in on something, there is a reason they all default to 19 psi when there is an issue and its not because the WGA tables inside the ECU.

You have enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to fool a tuner who knows this ECU very well.

 

[brancky3]

So... we wait. We watch and when the time comes, proper tunes will be flying off the shelf.

Unless a big company (APR, Cobb, EcuTek, etc) come to this platform I have strong doubts that any flash tune will 'fly off the shelf'. Nobody wants to wait 3 days to send their ECU out, have it tuned, and have it shipped back. And a spare ECU is just a dumb move at this point, why pay $2000+ total for a tune if you can run a JB4 and have just as much power?

 

[TorkMe]

It would be great if the whole community thought this way. Honestly looking at Facebook / some threads on here it's embarrassing how much hate there is for people running different tunes and other tuners bragging that literally everything else is trash because they can't match a Dragy time

I am going to take that as a jab at me?

Has anyone actually beat our 1/4 mile time at the strip yet, or are they all still Dragy times?

I have spent a ton of time trying to explain the ECU to members here on the forums, only to be dismissed because "BMW does it this way".

I didn't want to do the Dragy app, I was 100% against it, but I assimilate into using it and I become the bad guy because we are faster, and point that out?

Its like being fast is all the sudden a negative thing, because your tuner is not leading the way, lol.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Unless a big company (APR, Cobb, EcuTek, etc) come to this platform I have strong doubts that any flash tune will 'fly off the shelf'. Nobody wants to wait 3 days to send their ECU out, have it tuned, and have it shipped back. And a spare ECU is just a dumb move at this point, why pay $2000+ total for a tune if you can run a JB4 and have just as much power?

You realize your last statement is ludicrous right? Theres a reason the tuned car is running 11.5s and piggybacks with more mods are lucky to hit 11.8s.

I know i need a tune. I was just hoping the $600 i invested in a JB4 would be able to keep up with my mods Maybe in the future when terry gets around to other features. At least its resellable so i can recoup some money again.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Has anyone actually beat our 1/4 mile time at the strip yet, or are they all still Dragy times?

JohnB the "master of details" strikes again. From the 1/4 mile thread that you're generally active in.

5. 11.94 @ 118.11, @STINGER, 7.77 @ 92.99, 1.89
RWD, JB4 map 3, WMI, VT Snorkel, K&N Drop ins, High flow CAT, JunBL mid EVC cat back

6. 11.98 @118.96, @TorkMe, 7.84 @94.03, 1.95
GT RWD, Tork ECU tune, Tork intake, muffler delete, no cats, fmic. 92 Octane

 

[TorkMe]

Unless a big company (APR, Cobb, EcuTek, etc) come to this platform I have strong doubts that any flash tune will 'fly off the shelf'. Nobody wants to wait 3 days to send their ECU out, have it tuned, and have it shipped back. And a spare ECU is just a dumb move at this point, why pay $2000+ total for a tune if you can run a JB4 and have just as much power?

Hmmm... just about every tune for a 2018-2019 Dodge requires shipping the ECU.

Just took a quick peak at my bench flash tunes for the Veloster community, 400 + bench flash customers.

That is 400 nobodys in the Hyundai market, lol.

All that power means nothing if it cannot be used properly. How fast was that Pure Turbo car in the 1/4 mile?

To add insult to injury, didn't the owner of that Pure Turbo car claim to have all the ECU and TCU mapped? And it would be getting a bench flash soon?

I guess its not as easy as everyone is making it out to be

 

[TorkMe]

You realize your last statement is ludicrous right? Theres a reason the tuned car is running 11.5s and piggybacks with more mods are lucky to hit 11.8s.

I know i need a tune. I was just hoping the $600 i invested in a JB4 would be able to keep up with my mods Maybe in the future when terry gets around to other features. At least its resellable so i can recoup some money again.

What is the price difference between 11.5 and 11.8? $300

The look on a JB4 customers face when his 460 hp car gets gapped by a 400 hp tune, priceless

We are still working on the catless solution for the Stage 2, when that is done, we will be releasing the tune.

 

[Terry@BMS]

What is the price difference between 11.5 and 11.8? $300

The look on a JB4 customers face when his 460 hp car gets gapped by a 400 hp tune, priceless

We are still working on the catless solution for the Stage 2, when that is done, we will be releasing the tune.

I think it's great that tbob with perfect all wheel drive traction, in 30f weather, and all his mods, lighter rims, etc, was able to hit 11.59 on dragy. But that doesn't mean any other Tork customer is ever going to match his time so I'm not sure why you always talk like every Tork customer runs 11.59. That would be like me claiming every lightly modified JB4 customer on map3 runs 11.82.

 

[Regs120]

This thread is getting long and almost a year old. What has changed since its inception? Has Tork demonstrated good reliability or just performance? Has PresserTech increased their power output? According to PresserTech these are the numbers for a 91-93 octane tune:

Kia Stock numbers: 365HP and 376LBS-FT

Pressertech Numbers: 459HP and 522LBS-FT

That's more than just a little "oomph" but he uses only 15% drive train loss. Even if it was 20% it's still 430HP at the crank. They also say stock plugs are fine which is 150-300 dollars you tack on with Torks.

Like others have said, the service is also amazing with 24 hour turn-around time getting the ECU back the very next business day and constant email updates from Scott at Presser.

 

[ScottM]

Pressertech Numbers: 459HP and 522LBS-FT

Even if it was 20% it's still 430HP at the crank.

My assumption is the 459HP number is from the engine (crank?) to be apples to apples with the 365HP from KIA. With that I'd assume a much bigger loss then from 459hp to 430whp...but I am no math wiz and I might be reading this all wrong.

 

[MIGULZZ]

hmm perhaps vendors should not be allowed to comment on threads of this type? and allow the community to give feedback to one another and to avoid this pissing contest. just a thought...

 

[Sales@Tork]

This thread is getting long and almost a year old. What has changed since its inception? Has Tork demonstrated good reliability or just performance? Has PresserTech increased their power output? According to PresserTech these are the numbers for a 91-93 octane tune:

Kia Stock numbers: 365HP and 376LBS-FT

Pressertech Numbers: 459HP and 522LBS-FT

That's more than just a little "oomph" but he uses only 15% drive train loss. Even if it was 20% it's still 430HP at the crank. They also say stock plugs are fine which is 150-300 dollars you tack on with Torks.

Like others have said, the service is also amazing with 24 hour turn-around time getting the ECU back the very next business day and constant email updates from Scott at Presser.

We have tuned the Stinger using stock spark plugs with no issues. We recommend Plugs when we push more the about 420whp. We also only go by WHP not HP

 

[Kamauxx]

and constant email updates from Scott at Presser.

More info on this?

 

[Whiteybird]

We have tuned the Stinger using stock spark plugs with no issues. We recommend Plugs when we push more the about 420whp. We also only go by WHP not HP

Would you ever release a TCU only flash to address the shift points, LC, and quickness? I've found these to be the biggest problem on the platform imo, the shifts are slow.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Would you ever release a TCU only flash to address the shift points, LC, and quickness? I've found these to be the biggest problem on the platform imo, the shifts are slow.

Yes if we were to dig into the TCU and end up with a tune for it we would sell that as well.