Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Yaro]

WMI does not translate to straight octane. WMI lowers the power / energy for a given octane because the water reduces the energy of the fuel. Straight 100 octane without WMI will be more powerful than WMI raising <91 octane> to 100 octane for this reason. It does, however, make the car less prone to detonation which allows boost and timing to go up as you say (but, so does a FMIC)

M8, if you don't have a clue how wmi works and never ever tuned a car with meth, please don't write this stuff.

I've tuned a lot of cars running meth, I was using meth everyday on my evo. And it makes a huge difference. Never ever any intercooler with 100 octane can can be compared to 98 octane + meth. 100 octane lets you run on an evo aproximately 11.5 afr up top and 1/2" difference in timing. 50/50 meth lets you run 12.5 afr and 6-7" timing compare to 98 octane fuel. In hp you could run evo with 98 octane on full mods / medium size turbo at lets say 500hp, with meth 600+ and + 150 nm torque.

 

[brancky3]

M8, if you don't have a clue how wmi works and never ever tuned a car with meth, please don't write this stuff.

I've tuned a lot of cars running meth, I was using meth everyday on my evo. And it makes a huge difference. Never ever any intercooler with 100 octane can can be compared to 98 octane + meth. 100 octane lets you run on an evo aproximately 11.5 afr up top and 1/2" difference in timing. 50/50 meth lets you run 12.5 afr and 6-7" timing compare to 98 octane fuel. In hp you could run evo with 98 octane on full mods / medium size turbo at lets say 500hp, with meth 600+ and + 150 nm torque.

I understand your point but I was making a comparison between 91 octane + meth vs straight 100 octane. Yes of course meth can add power... How far off would the power be on your Evo comparing 91 + meth to 100 octane and no meth? This also seems like apples and oranges (I have no experience with Evos but I'm assuming you'd be running more than 16psi like Stingers are)

 

[Yaro]

I understand your point but I was making a comparison between 91 octane + meth vs straight 100 octane. Yes of course meth can add power... How far off would the power be on your Evo comparing 91 + meth to 100 octane and no meth? This also seems like apples and oranges (I have no experience with Evos but I'm assuming you'd be running more than 16psi like Stingers are)

91 octane equals to 95 octane in EU, 93 equals 98 in eu. 95 + meth equals to 107+or so. So it's basicaly a race fuel which never knoks.

Pure meth has octane rating of 156 (or something like that), water infinite. 50/50 water/meth substitutes 20% fuel. I was running on 95 + 50/50 water/meth up to 30psi on 2.0 engines without troubles.

16 psi in 3.3 is like 25 in 2.0

 

[Bigjohnb20]

I understand your point but I was making a comparison between 91 octane + meth vs straight 100 octane. Yes of course meth can add power... How far off would the power be on your Evo comparing 91 + meth to 100 octane and no meth? This also seems like apples and oranges (I have no experience with Evos but I'm assuming you'd be running more than 16psi like Stingers are)

I have to agree. The 2.0 on an evo is quite a bit different than a direct injection like in the stinger

 

[Yaro]

I have to agree. The 2.0 on an evo is quite a bit different than a direct injection like in the stinger

2.0 stinger is a very common motor to evo x 4b11.

But thats not the point. The point is that no matter what engine you have, meth gives (when tuned correctly) a way bigger advantage, then fmic.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Spent 5 minutes replying to JohnB & Co on Facebook re: some inflammatory claims regarding piggyback tuning. They make similar claims often so figured I might as well move the discussion here out in the open.

Brendan McCormick A piggyback setup tricks the ECU into seeing a different set of inputs than reality. So ALL the safeties are bypassed in the manufacturer programming. All the ECU will see is EVERYTHING is okay.

I hope your piggyback system is solid! Who is fooling you? The ECU isn’t.

Not all tuning systems are created equal, some are much more capable than others. It's a mistake to lump them all together. All these 2 channel systems like Vivid, AFE, RaceChip, TMC, etc, are all the same and can only do so much. But more advanced systems like the JB4 offer a lot more tuning capability.

Brendan McCormick Sorry that is just completely false, even the simplest and most limited systems like Vivid and RaceChip can't disable any factory safety systems, only dampen a system or two. But more advanced systems like JB4 can actually increase safety relative to flash tuning, for example, because you're not limited by the factory logic paths. The system can be programmed to look for markers that indicate something is going wrong and revert to a safe tuning level more aggressively than the factory logic allows.

Terry Burger and those factory logic systems would be?

I am so tired of hearing about the factory logic system, or safety systems, or blah blah blah from you, yet ever single damn time I ask you to show proof of a "safety system" you ignore me or resort to calling me names. Please, stop telling people what your box can do when you have no idea on how the safety systems inside the Stinger ECU work, please. It will make my job so much easier if I don't have to constantly post maps and asking you to prove your claim to safety systems.

I don't care how advanced your box is... its still hiding signal to the ECU, and if you have no idea how the ECU corrects said signal... then you have no idea on how to address it with the box.

When the ECU goes into exhaust overtemp, it does more than just dump fuel, it corrects ignition timing, adjust dashpot shift torque tip in, it drops turbine speeds, it reduces ignition dwell time... all of this you can see inside the ECU and if you have a lab scope, you watch it real time.

When I point out, in your logs that you have ignition timing drop, and then the JB4 tries to adjust for it, that is the ECU fighting your box, and you can see it in the logs. Eventually, you are going to bybass enough systems and the car is going to add enough timing during a shift, and you are going to put a window in your engine or a customers engine (if you haven't done it all ready and we just have not heard about it).

This will possibly be the last time I post in regards to your advanced piggy back or your 2 decades of experience, because you unethical approach to tuning peoples cars with a box that simply bypasses all the safeys inside the ECU... is not tuning. Its hacking your way to making power, and trust me... that is not how tuning is suppose to happen. People can use what they want for increasing performance... I choose to offer a solution that delivers results, and does so with all the safety systems in tact.

My .02

John Bushbaum As mentioned it's not possible for the JB4 to remove factory safety systems, it can only add on to them. Flash mapping on the other hand can remove factory safety systems if not done properly. Your question "and those logic factory safety systems would be" doesn't make sense in the context of my statement. I think you meant to ask "how can the JB4 improve on the flash only safety systems?". Just a few quick examples of the top of my head:

The factory boost scheme is load based meaning it's programmed to run less boost when it's cold out, and more boost when it's warm out. They do this to provide consistent power output in all weather but its the exact opposite of what you normally want to do for performance. The JB4 can be programmed to run absolute boost target profiles that provide more boost when it's cold out and safe to do so, and less when it's warm out and less safe. The boost mapping can dramatically differ from the factory boost logic and be adjusted on the fly based on whatever JB4 map is selected via your phone.

The ECU for example will let you run full power with AFR at 15:1 at full boost without going to limp mode. The JB4 can monitor AFR in both banks and abort a run by going to a low boost mode if AFR deviates from a user defined profile in either bank.

The ECU will let you run full power with fuel trims in bank1 dramatically different than fuel trims in bank2, which could would indicate a fueling discrepancy cylinder to cylinder, injector issue, or a distribution issue if running WMI. The JB4 can monitor fuel trims in both banks and revert to a low boost map if they deviate by more than a certain percentage.

With the JB4 we can use o2 sensor values to estimate ethanol fuel mixture and use that in combination with ignition advance readings to determine if the car is tuned too aggressively for the octane.

At a more fundamental level the JB4 can be programmed to keep boost at low levels until oil temperature exceeds a user defined value, is thin enough to properly lubricate the engine and turbo.

You like to talk a lot about turbine speed safety. I posted about it on stinger forum in a post you never bothered to reply to, but the JB4 can handle all the same logic externally. And the largest factory with turbine safety is the boost profile you run especially at higher engine speed, higher elevation, and higher intake temperatures.

It's a fully programmable system that is able to monitor every piece of engine data the ECU is monitoring. As we see needs come up we can work up logic for a safety system and plug it in to firmware following any logic path we want. Meanwhile the flash tuning is limited to changing tables within an existing structure. So that same level of flexibility doesn't exist with flash only tuning.

 

[jasonjf821]

Any one know the difference between lap3 uncle chip and pro tuner? Any advantages and disadvantages between the two? Thanks!

 

[Terry@BMS]

Any one know the difference between lap3 uncle chip and pro tuner? Any advantages and disadvantages between the two? Thanks!

Marketing

The lap3 is a 2 channel boost controller with no CANbus or fuel control, similar to RaceChip, and many others. They work but are very limited in what they can do.

The lap3-pro is a more advanced solution similar to the JB4 with CANbus and fuel control, but in a much less developed, more expensive, and harder to install format.

/Marketing

 

[jasonjf821]

Marketing

The lap3 is a 2 channel boost controller with no CANbus or fuel control, similar to RaceChip, and many others. They work but are very limited in what they can do.

The lap3-pro is a more advanced solution similar to the JB4 with CANbus and fuel control, but in a much less developed, more expensive, and harder to install format.

/Marketing

So basically the lap3 uncle chip is more of a boost controller and doesn’t really control anything else like fuel and such?

I see uncle chip claims up to 75hp increase. How much more would the protuner/jb4 increase using 93 octane?

Thanks

 

[Terry@BMS]

So basically the lap3 uncle chip is more of a boost controller and doesn’t really control anything else like fuel and such?

I see uncle chip claims up to 75hp increase. How much more would the protuner/jb4 increase using 93 octane?

Thanks

I'll let lap3 answer the specifics as to what they suggest you run.

The JB4 is fully programmable tuning system so can make as much or as little power as you'd like. On 93 octane a solid setup is map2 and the fuel wires, good for ~400whp on the stock intake, ~420whp with an intake. Of course you can crank it up to 450whp on 93 octane if you want but it becomes less safe IMHO. I suggest mixing in E85 for the higher power levels.

2018 Kia Stinger JB4 Tuner | BurgerTuning.com

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Any one know the difference between lap3 uncle chip and pro tuner? Any advantages and disadvantages between the two? Thanks!

Yes lap3 is whopping jb4 ass in times on pump gas vs pump gas. Na they are about the same one cost like 1000 vs 600. They both feel 1 size fits all so I'd go with the cheaper one.

 

[Angel]

I'll let lap3 field the specifics on what they suggest.

The JB4 is fully programmable tuning system so can make as much or as little power as you'd like. On 93 octane a solid setup is map2 and the fuel wires, good for ~400whp on the stock intake, ~420whp with an intake. Of course you can crank it up to 450whp on 93 octane if you want but it becomes less safe IMHO. I suggest mixing in E85 for the higher power levels.

2018 Kia Stinger JB4 Tuner | BurgerTuning.com

Love it lol Terry active on a Sunday....No days off......Terry is it true there is V7 firmware update coming soon? whats that one going to do?

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Love it lol Terry active on a Sunday....No days off......Terry is it true there is V7 firmware update coming soon? whats that one going to do?

He said make the logs look pretty. I doubt anyone sees any significant changes to any off the shelf piggyback out. Hes changing some stuff with the AFR I think

 

[Terry@BMS]

He said make the logs look pretty. I doubt anyone sees any significant changes to any off the shelf piggyback out. Hes changing some stuff with the AFR I think

I'm under selling the v7 benefit until I know it works properly. It's a nice upgrade over how we're doing fuel control now, which is a nice upgrade already over how other piggybacks run (or don't run) fuel control.

A well designed piggyback can self tune and adapt itself to your specific car's hardware and conditions. And unlike a flash map you don't have to mail your ECU across the country for map changes or updates. This JB4 v7 firmware change is actually to make fuel control much more adaptive based on differences to the hardware, modifications, fuel, and climate.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Love it lol Terry active on a Sunday....No days off

Don't worry I'm still watching football at the same time.

 

[Terry@BMS]

16 psi in 3.3 is like 25 in 2.0

Like running E85 mixtures, EGT reduction is one of the major advantages, which lets you run more aggressive tuning (more boost and/or timing) safely. Based on my testing a BM10 nozzle with 49/51 meth running 91 octane provides more or less equivalent benefits to 30% E85 mixed with 91 octane. For those with easy E85 access then there may not be a benefit for WMI on stock turbos. But for those who don't have E85 access, WMI becomes much more tempting.

 

[Angel]

I'm under selling the v7 benefit until I know it works properly. It's a nice upgrade over how we're doing fuel control now, which is a nice upgrade already over how other piggybacks run (or don't run) fuel control.

A well designed piggyback can self tune and adapt itself to your specific car's hardware and conditions. And unlike a flash map you don't have to mail your ECU across the country for map changes or updates. This JB4 v7 firmware change is actually to make fuel control much more adaptive based on differences to the hardware, modifications, fuel, and climate.

So question..I will getting an intercooler upgrade soon....i have down pipes and muffler deletes and well as intakes...with this new new update how would that help my set up? also since i will be getting an intercooler can i run map 3 now and should i still use E30 mix? E30 mix wont mess my fuel system up right? The reason i ask is when i converted my is 300 to E85 i pretty much had to upgrade my whole fuel system, I heard e85 needs to be used with an e85 compatible fuel system...

 

[Angel]

@Terry@BMS Also down the road when i get teh lap 3 primary down pipes which then i will be running a full catless system because i already have teh ssr DP....I heard of people getting overboost code and ecu going into lymp mode...can the JB4 work around that? i have not heard anyone yet?

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

So question..I will getting an intercooler upgrade soon....i have down pipes and muffler deletes and well as intakes...with this new new update how would that help my set up? also since i will be getting an intercooler can i run map 3 now and should i still use E30 mix? E30 mix wont mess my fuel system up right? The reason i ask is when i converted my is 300 to E85 i pretty much had to upgrade my whole fuel system, I heard e85 needs to be used with an e85 compatible fuel system...

For the E30 I just wouldnt ever let it sit in the tank for long periods. When you feel like having fun do you mixture and have fun. Dont fill your tank with you mixture and use it to drive around all week.

 

[Terry@BMS]

So question..I will getting an intercooler upgrade soon....i have down pipes and muffler deletes and well as intakes...with this new new update how would that help my set up? also since i will be getting an intercooler can i run map 3 now and should i still use E30 mix? E30 mix wont mess my fuel system up right? The reason i ask is when i converted my is 300 to E85 i pretty much had to upgrade my whole fuel system, I heard e85 needs to be used with an e85 compatible fuel system...

I don't know if the intercooler offers much benefit yet as I haven't tested it personally. It's interesting that the "worlds fastest" Stinger (ours at ~120mph) is running stock downpipes, stock exhaust, and the factory intercooler.

Of all the mods out the primary downpipes probably boost torque dramatically (good for AWD vehicles launching), and may open up a little top end power. Waiting for someone to do solid back to back testing.

In terms of tuning with downpipes the v6 maps work well, but like all areas of development, we'll continue working with customers for improvement as we see opportunities. Also be aware installing downpipes is highly illegal inside the USA so if you're going to violate federal law probably not a bright idea to share that on public discussion forums.