Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[Terry@BMS]

I am going to talk about this, because it relates to the piggy back vs tune.

The piggy back hides boost from the ECU, I think we all understand that now. What people don't understand is that the turbo compressor speeds tables are built into the ECU, and those speeds are calculated off of the boost levels being recorded by the ECU. So... if you are hiding boost from the ECU, it cannot calculate proper turbo speeds.

Turbo speeds fall into a lot of maps for different protection levels. A big one would be turbine temp safety limit. If you hide the boost, turbo speeds are not accurate, now we have turbine temps off as well. If you hide to much boost, then shift control for BOV/surge valve operation. All the calculations are off, and possible turbo damage can result from this type of hidden boost signal.

I have seen turbo failures from aggressive settings in the turbo speed maps on stock turbo cars. It was actually a problem for a little while in the Hyundai market with a Korean tuner cranking up the turbo speeds to max, and the turbos were running full speed with the surge valve wide open. This created a massive turbo speed attempting to reach target boost, and ended up with several cars with failing turbos.

Now, not all ECU's are programmed with calculated turbo speeds... it just so happens that the Stinger has these maps and these have to be monitored carefully to avoid turbo overspeed.

Hope this helps.

It's true that high turbine speed is normally what leads to turbo failure. What is high turbine speed is relative and generally caused by high boost targets at high engine speeds.

There isn't a turbine speed sensor on this platform, just like there isn't an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor, they are both modeled values. Once you change the tuning their modeling changes. Once you add hard parts like intakes, exhaust changes, etc, their modeling changes. There are modeled limits that need to be kept under to avoid limp modes, and hard limits you'll want to stay under to avoid physical turbo damage.

How you technically handle it safely with flash tuning will be different than how you safely handle it with JB4 tuning.

On the flash side you'll adjust several tables to increase the modeled turbine speed limit, or adjust the modeled constants so the turbine speed modeling is lower than it would otherwise be. You need to ensure tables are set properly so the physical limits are not exceeded.

On the JB4 end the turbine speed will always be registered as stock values, so the JB4 only has to manage physical turbine speed by actively managing the boost target especially at higher RPM, based on engine criteria coming in via CANbus.

Remember turbine speed is a largely a function of WGDC, engine speed, air density, and EGT. It's going to take so much speed to hit a specific boost target at a specific engine speed and specific volumetric efficiency. So bottom line is the tuner has to provide boost profiles that are within the hardware's limits. People often ask why we let boost taper to ~12psi at redline on the JB4 maps for example. This is why.

Worth noting the modeled turbine speed is a loggable parameter. I have it setup to monitor in our test firmware, before I poked around and realized there was no sensor making it useless. If there is demand we can add it to the public firmware as maybe the flash tuner guys will find it useful. There are a few parameters we plan to get in there including WGDC.

 

[KLR STINGER]

He installed and next day his engine went bye bye. He said he bought 2 one for him and one for his brother.

But you are right we dont have the complete details on it yet.

So honestly dude if you don't know the facts... Shut the duck up. This fan boy jumping to conclusions is getting absurd. For factual context, I'm probably one of the most modded stingers in NA, and have run jb4 for 11000+km. II installed it with less than 200km on the car. I log everything and have never seen knock, and my afrs and timing are solid. Most boost I've ever run is 18psi on map5 prior to FMIC and DP with ecu reported psi under 12. My 12.1 run ran 17.1 psi peak. My car works great, so I doubt some little lying weirdo on Facebook blue his engine cause he added a jb4 To a stock car in 2 days.

I'm not Terry or John in terms my knowledge of the control system strategies and logic on this platform, but I'm pretty close. I have tuned most of my cars personally and understand the strategies employed by modern closed loop, torque demand system.

Everything Terry says with how the jb4 addresses the red herring problems that John throws out is true. The thing that needs to be clear is both platforms solve the same problems in different ways.

John has to do the tedious work of identifying and editing base and modifier tables in the OEM control strategies to solve a problem. Moving limits in tables to achieve requested torque values is no safe objectively than telling the ecu everything is fine. It just means the control systems do not intervene at higher monitored parameters. This is actually what modern ecu tuning is mostly about. Setting requested torque values, and editing all the dependant base and modifier tables to allow the requested torque to be met. Of course you get the benefit here of editing table which govern systems that affect thing like launch torque, TCM reporting etc which is where ecu editing can out performs other

Terry works around those same control system by telling them all is within parameters. Both are solving the same thing avoid control and limiting systems from intervention

Every time John responds to terry saying something like "showe the table" it's a distraction technique to try to display his own efforts on doing the much needed leg work on mapping the ECU. But it's not a valid criticism because John does know that it's not the point. He knows how closed loop systems work, and how timing boost and AFR are managed, and if he was being honest could simply say that it's different ways of solving the same problem, and articulate where his platform can provide additional advantages once he's solved them.

I'll freely admit I'm a fan of Terry, but no fan boy. Mostly because when I approached Terry about the technical aspects of he was happy to engage in a discussion about how the jb4 would address my needs and we openly discussed technical mitigations and considerations for my goals. He's been nothing but reaponsive and professional with me.

When I tried to reach out to John when I first got my stinger and asked about how far he got in mapping ecu and if he had access to tables yet that would address my key areas of concern, he basically told me to f*ck off and would never " even tell his wife what tables he was touching" and didn't need my help in any way. Yet it's become clear to me that was more likely because at the time he had no clue what/when he's be able to answer those questions. He's since had no problem publicly posting tables and what he can do in threads when he's trying to prove how smart he is vs Terry. That's pretty telling of you ask me.

John is doing absolutely needed work, and I credit him for that. It will ultimately benefit his product and the community. When the product substantially outperforms a JB 4 I'll give him all the credit and may even consider his product in the future. But what Terry's says is true. Some of us know the difference and frankly that should include John.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I'm not going to quote the 9 paragraph post, but that was the facts. So if you dont know shut the "duck" up as you said.

 

[Bigjohnb20]

This so many times

Edit: I am agreeing with klr stinger not the stupid Facebook shit

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

This so many times

Edit: I am agreeing with klr stinger not the stupid Facebook shit

My response was to klr stating if im not posting facts to shut up. I dont post shit unless I have a basis behind it.

I posted somone put on a jb4 and next day his engine went bye bye... FACT... Theres the proof. I also posted we dont know all the details which again is another fact.

 

[Blitz]

Bro don't show anyone's name and profile pic....

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Bro don't show anyone's name and profile pic....

He was in the group posting similar info, but you're right. I edited to remove his name and picture.

 

[KLR STINGER]

I'm not going to quote the 9 paragraph post, but that was the facts. So if you dont know shut the "duck" up as you said.

So that's a fact to you? You know the failure mode and causalities here then? I'll give you co coincidence but there is no known fact. You don't even know what the problem is. Your bias is obvious in these posts since you posted your love letter to John, you knowledge is limited and your intentions clear. Your trying to spread FUD, yet frankly dude you don't have a clue. Stick to reviews of your
dump valves an how OMG THEY ARE.

 

[brancky3]

I mean, judging on that text it sounds like the turbo / turbos were making noise even before the car was tuned. Of course pushing more boost on an already failing turbo is going to push it over the edge.... that's like saying my ankle is sprained so I think I'm going to register for a marathon tomorrow - what's the worst that could happen?

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Klr,

Dude the fact is he put the jb4 on and the next day catastrophic failure. We dont know the full details on what happened. Those are the facts.

Now you want to sling mud regarding my other reviews and threads becuase you want to puff your chest on the keyboard good for you. Those dump valves, 15-20 other people from the communities including this one have purchased them and love them all while saving anywhere from $700-2000 in comparison to a full cat back and downpipes, while gaining control of stock notes vs open valves. What have you brought to the community?

I honestly wont waste my energy with someone who wants to throw off topic dirt and talk trash about my reviews I have done for the community. So be Mister Internet Tough Guy. You are blocked so type away.

 

[Terry@BMS]

My response was to klr stating if im not posting facts to shut up. I dont post shit unless I have a basis behind it.

I posted somone put on a jb4 and next day his engine went bye bye... FACT... Theres the proof. I also posted we dont know all the details which again is another fact.

I got some more information from the guy who made that Facebook post that turned in to a dumpster fire. Tuning and mods had nothing to do with his situation and he doesn't have "catastrophic engine failure". I'm sure he'll be happy to tell his story once it's all sorted. I think it's libelous of you to go around claiming one of our parts or any aftermarket part at all had anything to do with his situation when I know you won't be able to defend that position when the facts come out.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

I got some more information from the guy who made that Facebook post that turned in to a dumpster fire. Tuning and mods had nothing to do with his situation and he doesn't have "catastrophic engine failure". I'm sure he'll be happy to tell his story once it's all sorted. I think it's libelous of you to go around claiming one of our parts or any aftermarket part at all had anything to do with his situation when I know you won't be able to defend that position when the facts come out.

All i did was post the facts. I have no position that the the JB4 caused the failure just what i was told and what i posted.

Again since you are hard of reading these last couple days:

Fact: Post that JB4 was installed and next day he had an engine failure
Fact: I posted we dont know all the details yet.

Now i dont know what else I could do for you terry, but those are the facts. When we find more out I will be glad to post them.

 

[Kia Stinger]

Technically due to forum rules I'm not supposed to post in this thread unless invited, I missed it earlier because you don't have the "sponsor" tag under your name. If there is an issue with me posting here hopefully the mods can move any posts I made here to another neutral thread.

I should have had both of their accounts setup with the vendor badge. I'm making this update now to avoid any confusion...

 

[lucif3r]

New here, just got my Stinger GT Ltd a month ago, was doing some research on future mods, and daaaamn this thread got out of control lol. Ive been modding cars for about 12 years now, everything from civics to benz's and I've never seen two vendors go at it like drunk girls at a house party before. Very entertaining.

 

[brancky3]

Fact: Post that JB4 was installed and next day he had an engine failure

Wait, I thought it was a turbo failure? This is a prime example of how things get so out of hand and misunderstood. If he had a whistling sound (ie failing turbo) he's an absolute idiot for turning up the boost from there.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Wait, I thought it was a turbo failure? This is a prime example of how things get so out of hand and misunderstood. If he had a whistling sound (ie failing turbo) he's an absolute idiot for turning up the boost from there.

A lot of these guys don't really know the difference. Everything is a blown motor to them. Like the guy who had smoking and oil leaking from a failed OCC install or whatever and thought his motor went.

 

[KLR STINGER]

A lot of these guys don't really know the difference. Everything is a blown motor to them. Like the guy who had smoking and oil leaking from a failed OCC install or whatever and thought his motor went.

Exactly Terry. Most these guys watch a YouTube video and think they are tuners, but have no basic mechanical, engineering knowledge or remote understanding of tuning.

Then you add fan boys looking to push their agenda and you end up with the shit show most of the FB groups and forums are these days

 

[Sales@Tork]

This back and forth sniping is really getting rather tedious, especially as there is an existing thread comparing the two approaches to tuning - but I must admit you've piqued my curiosity with this.

@Terry@BMS believes the nature of a piggyback chip won't allow detection once its removed, though he's not suggestion that be exploited for fraudulent purposes (I agree on taking the moral high road).

Exactly what diagnostics are you referring to, reading what information left by the piggyback installation?

he has admitted recently that they can be detected.

 

[Terry@BMS]

he has admitted recently that they can be detected.

Fake news. A properly implemented piggyback can't be detected at the software level by nature of how they have to be designed to function. And I've outlined the numerous various ways flash maps are detected. In terms of diagnostic invisibility it's really a moot discussion at this point as we're just repeating the same points. I'm confident as more time passes people will find my arguments on the subject based on fact and yours based on marketing.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

piggyback can't be detected at the software level

....

Sooooo what about a thorough diagnostic by Kia Corporate?

Could they can take the time it takes for the car to accelerate based on speed or rpm rise over time and determine how much power it takes to accelerate the known mass of the car in the known amount of time.