Lets talk tuning, piggy back vs ECU flash.

[TorkMe]

So, the debate of which is better is getting heated with new records being broken everyday (well, with the exception of one) we need to talk about tuning.

Now, setting aside the ease of install, shipping the ECU, ect. I simply want to talk about tuning the ECU and how its different from a piggy back. I want to field any questions that people may have about tuning the ECU, and if I can, I will try to answer those questions about piggy backs and the interference they play in the operation of the ECU.

At no time will I reference one particular ECU tune, piggy back or other, because... I am not here to point fingers or make accusations. I will simply post maps from the ECU (values have been changed to protect my IP) hiding the HEX address and we will discuss. Sound good?

Lets start with these 3 maps:

1. This is the minimum torque that the ECU will allow during a shift... this map I didn't change much, but you can see its -200 Nm. With an ECU tune, you can modify this value. With a piggy back... not so much.


2. This one is peak air flow for brakes applied, vehicle stationary. This is KgH in air flow. A change to this map will allow more air flow into the engine, with the brake applied. How cool is that



3. This next one is my favorite map to date... I call this my burnout mode map This map determines how much throttle opening you are limited by via KPH. There is another map attached to this one, that limits throttle opening during launch control to 25%, and increases (linear curve) to 20 KPH. Reduce this map to 0 KPH, and... you have 100% throttle and 100% load from a dead stop. Again, this is something that a piggy back tuner cannot achieve.



Now, the crazy thing about these maps... I have not used them in any car or any tune yet. I have been playing with one of them in my personal car for a while now, but the other 2 are brand new maps that I just identified tonight.

Some may ask, "identified the map"? Yes, I have to find the maps inside the ECU because there are no current map indexes or engineering files on the market for the Stinger (yet). So I am using a decompiler to help me find maps, and another map index from a friend over at (enter major automotive manufacture) to help me line up the offsets and get the transfer index working.

Offset is where I take known good maps, and align them in my map index. Its kind of cheating, and has to be confirmed in a personal car before loading into a tune. I use several different files to do this with, a big help has been the Audi and Merc files I have for lining up the different files via offset). A decompiler is software that takes the engineering binary and transfers it into a legible text. I still have to build the map, but I at least know my x, y and sometimes z axis data.

What does all this mean, well... with more data getting identified inside the ECU, we are going to start seeing the tuned cars get faster and faster as I spend more and more time inside this stupid ECU We have finished Stage 0 and Stage 1 tunes, we are now moving onto Stage 2.

Now, I am sure its going to get asked... when will we have pops and gurgles or raise the rev limit for LC or have two step for the LC. Pops and gurgles I have had for a while, just have not spent the time to play with is or adjust the fuel and ignition intervals for it... soon. The LC rev limit, we are struggling to find that and there is a very good possibility a new line of code will have to be written to go over that of the stall converter lock up, still looking into that. Two step... uhg, I am going to have to spend some time testing to make sure we don't fold over the turbine inside the torque converter. Its going to take a while, because we are going to have to go very, very slow and small steps to avoid blowing up the torque converter on my personal car

With that said... hit me with your questions and let me know what you think about the 3 maps I have shared with the community.

Thanks,

John with Tork Motorsports

 

[washguy]

John you are now getting your rewards for hard work.....and as you get more insight to the codes you will reap more overall knoweledge of the ecu .... Wash

 

[TorkMe]

John you are now getting your rewards for hard work.....and as you get more insight to the codes you will reap more overall knoweledge of the ecu .... Wash

Thanks.... this ECU is the deepest I have ever gone into coding and decompile. Normally, I just have the A2L or DAMOS file sent over and, we are tuning. It would appear that the Koreans do not want this file making its way into the tuning market, so I am having to do it the hard way. I will get it done, and the great thing about this, when I do get an A2L (engineering file) I will know the ECU inside out and be able to start coding my own maps and doing cool things like on the fly map switching.

 

[DaJackson]

For anyone that’s been around tuning it should be known that an ECU tune has the POSSIBILITY to be more in depth and this push the platform further. However that comes at the POSSIBLE cost of future warranty issues and usually the price of the tune.

If you want to be at the very edge of the platforms capability, but risk “falling off the edge” then a fully developed ECU tune is needed. If you just want more power at less cost then a quality piggy back is good too.

 

[brancky3]

If you want to be at the very edge of the platforms capability, but risk “falling off the edge” then a fully developed ECU tune is needed. If you just want more power at less cost then a quality piggy back is good too.

Tons of people run piggybacks on top of ECU tunes as well. I could see this being the case for things like meth injection - it would be much easier to change settings on a piggyback on the fly if you empty your 50/50 meth mix and refill it with 30/70 meth mix, for example. Cool post, thanks for the info

 

[Sales@Tork]

For anyone that’s been around tuning it should be known that an ECU tune has the POSSIBILITY to be more in depth and this push the platform further. However that comes at the POSSIBLE cost of future warranty issues and usually the price of the tune.

If you want to be at the very edge of the platforms capability, but risk “falling off the edge” then a fully developed ECU tune is needed. If you just want more power at less cost then a quality piggy back is good too.

I am currious how you assumed an ECU tune is more, "on the edge" than a piggy back?

With a properly developed tune, you can do more with less. Less boost, less ignition timing, less and safer air fuels. The other benefit from a properly engineered tune is you never have to worry about safety limits being turned off, or the sensor signals being hidden from the ECU like a piggy back. Things like turbine max temp thresholds, overboost, load limits for knock protection, ect.

Now, can you take a tune to the limit or exceed the threshold of whats safe? Yes, you can, but any tuner does so knowing this, and reveals that to their customers before releasing a tune.

I do find it odd that you would assume a tune is more "edge" than a piggy back, but hopefully this thread helps clear up those misconseprtions.

 

[oddball]

John, first, excellent work on the engineering! I know this stuff isn't easy.
Do you see anything like the SCT/HPTuners handheld programming units coming onto the market for Kia/Hyundai/Genesis? From a technology perspective I greatly prefer an ECU tune, but being unable to modify/roll back/monitor it myself is, for me, a deal breaker. The piggy backs certainly can't do as much, but at least we can control them and remove them if necessary.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Tons of people run piggybacks on top of ECU tunes as well. I could see this being the case for things like meth injection - it would be much easier to change settings on a piggyback on the fly if you empty your 50/50 meth mix and refill it with 30/70 meth mix, for example. Cool post, thanks for the info

Yes they do, but any ECU tune that has been optimized will not need a piggy back, and several tunes on the market have multiple map options. We actually have map switching built into the Stinger ECU via mode selector switch. So if you wanted sport mode to be your methanol tune, we can accomidate that.

The biggest fear of running a piggy back and changing fuel types or adding methanol, adaptive values have no time to adjust. Thus you run into limited power gains until the adptives have adjusted. If you change the tune parameters, via ECU the adaptives have already been written for the mode change. This is much more optimal vs hidding more or less signal from the ECU.

 

[brancky3]

Yes they do, but any ECU tune that has been optimized will not need a piggy back, and several tunes on the market have multiple map options.

Yes, that is true for an ECU tune that has been optimized to a specific car. Most other companies offer an off the shelf ECU tune and it has limited customization since it is built for 'everyone' and not an individual car. But your environment / ambient temps / humidity is much different in the NW USA than mine in the SE USA.

Personally, if I bought an ECU tune from you it would drive me nuts sending the ECU back to you to make an adjustment since I can barely wait 2 days for Amazon packages . Pressertech is closer to me but I feel they're not at the same power / tuning level. I'd be more interested if you offered an off the shelf tune that eliminates the torque limits, throttle limits, and airflow stuff that you posted above and then fine tune it with a piggyback so I could run different levels depending on my environment.

 

[Sales@Tork]

John, first, excellent work on the engineering! I know this stuff isn't easy.
Do you see anything like the SCT/HPTuners handheld programming units coming onto the market for Kia/Hyundai/Genesis? From a technology perspective I greatly prefer an ECU tune, but being unable to modify/roll back/monitor it myself is, for me, a deal breaker. The piggy backs certainly can't do as much, but at least we can control them and remove them if necessary.

Thank you.

Yes, we have a plan to offer a port flash option, problem. This ECU is encrypted very well, like... really well. We already have port flashing for the BK1 2.0T/3.8 and the 5.0 engines.

Ah... modifying your own tune. I wouldn't recommend that for anyone, even experienced tuners would struggle with whats inside this ECU, hell... I did. Just to give you an idea, there are currently 96 ignition maps that I change inside the ECU for our Stage 2 beta tune and there will be more changed as we deal with launch control and 0 MPH full throttle mapping.

I have looked at building map indexes for shop and experienced tuners, only to have to go back inand fix tunes. The transfer index (map sharing info inside the ECU) is very advanced and good, but you have got to know what maps have priority over the others to build a good tune. This mostly comes from trial and error, and its the primary reason we bought a car for testing.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Yes, that is true for an ECU tune that has been optimized to a specific car. Most other companies offer an off the shelf ECU tune and it has limited customization since it is built for 'everyone' and not an individual car. But your environment / ambient temps / humidity is much different in the NW USA than mine in the SE USA.

Personally, if I bought an ECU tune from you it would drive me nuts sending the ECU back to you to make an adjustment since I can barely wait 2 days for Amazon packages . Pressertech is closer to me but I feel they're not at the same power / tuning level. I'd be more interested if you offered an off the shelf tune that eliminates the torque limits, throttle limits, and airflow stuff that you posted above and then fine tune it with a piggyback so I could run different levels depending on my environment.

You are assuming that enviroment plays a part in the ECU or the tuning, it actually has very little to do with a tune. The ECU's have become very good at adjusting to enviromental conditions, so much that its become unnecessary to worry about them. Why would you have to send the tune back for adjustments?

 

[Doel]

I have a friend with Mazda Speed3 with an ECU tune (very fun and underestimated little car). He had some engine issues, got the ECU reflashed to stock, then drove it in and had his warranty voided. He thinks it's because he didn't drive the car long enough with the stock tune and the dealer could still see some ecu parameters off from the tune, "finger prints" my friend called it.

Is this going to be the same case with our cars? If we throw a rod or something with a Tork tune is there any way to get it covered by warranty?

 

[oddball]

Sorry, "modify" in the sens of what the handheld units provide - selecting pre-set maps, general ignition changes, etc. We're still at the mercy of the tuner. Which is usually fine, except for oddball situations like the one I'm stuck in now. My buddy is building a blown 4.6 for his Town Car. If this was a mustang it would've been done years ago. But the Town Car ECU is slightly different. And even the guys that tune Town Cars (of which there aren't many) aren't up to speed on the changes between years. e.g., fuel pump control changed from 99 to 00, so one particular load tries to send a PWM fuel pump signal out the fuel pump relay wire. Which on '99 is the same wire as the ECU's power wire. You can see where this is going. So we've got three different shops experimenting with mixes of mustang and town car baselines from SCT.
Sometimes it even kinda works.

 

[oddball]

Is this going to be the same case with our cars? If we throw a rod or something with a Tork tune is there any way to get it covered by warranty?

Your best option is to keep an unmolested stock ECU, which has run in your car, on the shelf. Or, better yet, keep *your* ECU stock and get a replacement ECU flashed.
Still, one has to trade off warranty for experimentation. You don't get the best of both.

 

[Sales@Tork]

I have a friend with Mazda Speed3 with an ECU tune (very fun and underestimated little car). He had some engine issues, got the ECU reflashed to stock, then drove it in and had his warranty voided. He thinks it's because he didn't drive the car long enough with the stock tune and the dealer could still see some ecu parameters off from the tune, "finger prints" my friend called it.

Is this going to be the same case with our cars? If we throw a rod or something with a Tork tune is there any way to get it covered by warranty?

There are no "finger prints" left inside the ECU, dealers pull this shit all the time. Its criminal, but what your friend did was criminal also.

If you throw a rod, happens on stock cars all the time, tuned or not, mechanical parts fail and have defects in them. I tell people all the time if you are worried about warranty, do not mod your car and that still doesn't protect you from the dealer voiding your warranty.

 

[Sales@Tork]

Your best option is to keep an unmolested stock ECU, which has run in your car, on the shelf. Or, better yet, keep *your* ECU stock and get a replacement ECU flashed.
Still, one has to trade off warranty for experimentation. You don't get the best of both.

This is possibly the best option.

 

[Doel]

There are no "finger prints" left inside the ECU, dealers pull this shit all the time. Its criminal, but what your friend did was criminal also.

If you throw a rod, happens on stock cars all the time, tuned or not, mechanical parts fail and have defects in them. I tell people all the time if you are worried about warranty, do not mod your car and that still doesn't protect you from the dealer voiding your warranty.

I understand, but I think we all know that 90% of the people that modify cars under warranty, Stinger owners included, are going to try to get any engine problems covered with their warranty. So if I send my tuned ECU back to you, you reflash it back to stock, and I throw it back in my car, there will be no indication it was ever modified? Even if the car isn't running?

 

[Sales@Tork]

Sorry, "modify" in the sens of what the handheld units provide - selecting pre-set maps, general ignition changes, etc. We're still at the mercy of the tuner. Which is usually fine, except for oddball situations like the one I'm stuck in now. My buddy is building a blown 4.6 for his Town Car. If this was a mustang it would've been done years ago. But the Town Car ECU is slightly different. And even the guys that tune Town Cars (of which there aren't many) aren't up to speed on the changes between years. e.g., fuel pump control changed from 99 to 00, so one particular load tries to send a PWM fuel pump signal out the fuel pump relay wire. Which on '99 is the same wire as the ECU's power wire. You can see where this is going. So we've got three different shops experimenting with mixes of mustang and town car baselines from SCT.
Sometimes it even kinda works.

That is where the problem is, general ignition changes are not "general" anymore. Some ECU's are not using ignition maps anymore, they write in an algorithim based on several parmeters to determine a ghost ignition map, its kind of crazy.

In the case of your buddy, there is a reason for standalone engine management, he needs to move over to that.

 

[Sales@Tork]

I understand, but I think we all know that 90% of the people that modify cars under warranty, Stinger owners included, are going to try to get any engine problems covered with their warranty. So if I send my tuned ECU back to you, you reflash it back to stock, and I throw it back in my car, there will be no indication it was ever modified? Even if the car isn't running?

Yes, even if the car is not running when you flash back to stock, it writes ever area with the old code, even the run parameters.

 

[DaBears4Lyfe]

Besides peoples point of views on putting back your car back to stock, the biggest upside to the current ECU Tune vs Piggyback is ease of removal for me. I am working on getting my rotors replaced under warranty and with my JB4 it takes me 10 min to pop on and off to go back and forth to the dealers (4 times so far). With an ECU tune i would have to NDA the ECU to you and have you NDA it back everytime i need to go in. That is not feasible for me as this is my daily driver. While I would love an proper ECU tune its just not worth the risks for me at the moment. I understand they can be safer options, I understand Dealers cant technically void your warranty... but they will. I for one dont have the time or pocket lawyer to help me fight it.

For now its Piggybacks > ECU tune for that reason. Also, the similarities in HP, TQ, 1/4 times, Boost PSI etc for a quarter of the cost if not more is also very attractive.

When we have the ability to flash updates/custom maps and stock software at home then ECU tunes may take the edge for me, but until then I just cant see the real upside of $400-500 vs $1,800+ (spare ECU included in that price).

I do think there shouldn't be any additional upcharges for going for Stage 0 to 1 to 1.5 swell. Once you pay for a tune you should be able to get what ever flashed maps you have developed similar to piggybacks.

Again, I do hope I can get a proper ECU tune one day as I do see the benefits but at the moment I just cant see the real upside vs cost, risk taken, and ease of removal to stock.

Tork is doing great things and in time im sure they will have everything figured out and give us what we want. I will be a customer at that time!