JB4 Vs Lap3 ProTuner - Any opinions?

[Angel]

I have to respectfully disagree and here are a few facts to prove otherwise.

First of all, both “hybrid” chips can alter the same exact parameters and any difference of power is simply based on each tuners boost, ignition & A/F settings...

Second, according to both Stock dyno’s, lap3 sacrifices a ton of low end torque to maximize HP.Not only do they make 25 less peak torque, it’s actually 100wtq less at 2500 rpm, and 60wtq less at 4k!

That’s a huge difference in low end power and only good for drag racing or trying to break HP records.

Bottom line, they’re simply moving the power curve higher to prioritize peak HP over daily drivability. The lap3 only makes more power from 4500-6k so unless someone normally drives at over 5k rpm the JB4 will be & feel faster.

Again, since both “hybrid” chips can make the same adjustments saying one is better than the other is misleading. Whatever the lap3 can do the JB4 can do as well. It’s simply how each tuner prioritizes power. Max HP(lap3) for top end speed vs max torque(JB4) for improved daily drivability and 0-60 runs.

Hope this helps and happy tuning all!

I agree to disagree... I don’t understand how my opinion is misleading? It’s my opinion lol .... I feel the lap 3 pro tuner is the best piggy back out right now .... All I know is that my friend has it and we have he same mods on the car and his car is faster .... sure you can feel the JB4 is better and that is your opinion and that is not misleading ..... anyways from actually driving his car and driving mine , and racing each other he beat me every time .... now that’s just my opinion .....you can put all these numbers and stats up but I am just stating my actual live experience ....

 

[brancky3]

All I know is that my friend has it and we have he same mods on the car and his car is faster .... sure you can feel the JB4 is better and that is your opinion and that is not misleading ..... anyways from actually driving his car and driving mine , and racing each other he beat me every time .... now that’s just my opinion .....you can put all these numbers and stats up but I am just stating my actual live experience ....

Probably because he's running 5+ more PSI

 

[Terry@BMS]

I have to respectfully disagree and here are a few facts to prove otherwise.

Exactly. Both are capable of the same performance potential as evidenced by customer times all being roughly similar. The difference is in the maps, features, and implementations. Although I'm biased I think the JB4 is so far ahead because it's been out since 2009, and thus many of the features are more highly developed. Also we're more active with the community and always working on new features, maps, and tuning changes to keep things fun.

PS. Technically whoever drives the Lap-PRO is going to be a little lighter in the wallet. So that might be contributing also.

 

[Angel]

Exactly. Both are capable of the same performance potential as evidenced by customer times all being roughly similar. The difference is in the maps, features, and implementations. Although I'm biased I think the JB4 is so far ahead because it's been out since 2009, and thus many of the features are more highly developed. Also we're more active with the community and always working on new features, maps, and tuning changes to keep things fun.

PS. Technically whoever drives the Lap-PRO is going to be a little lighter in the wallet. So that might be contributing also. [/QU
I agree lol...you are super active with the community and you are way cheaper......Thats why i am staying with my JB4 into next summer when i will probably drive to Atlanta to get presertech to get an actual ecu tune....

 

[Angel]

Exactly. Both are capable of the same performance potential as evidenced by customer times all being roughly similar. The difference is in the maps, features, and implementations. Although I'm biased I think the JB4 is so far ahead because it's been out since 2009, and thus many of the features are more highly developed. Also we're more active with the community and always working on new features, maps, and tuning changes to keep things fun.

PS. Technically whoever drives the Lap-PRO is going to be a little lighter in the wallet. So that might be contributing also.

I agree lol...you are super active with the community and you are way cheaper......Thats why i am staying with my JB4 into next summer when i will probably drive to Atlanta to get presertech to get an actual ecu tune....

 

[StungBlueGT2]

I agree to disagree... I don’t understand how my opinion is misleading? It’s my opinion lol .... I feel the lap 3 pro tuner is the best piggy back out right now .... All I know is that my friend has it and we have he same mods on the car and his car is faster .... sure you can feel the JB4 is better and that is your opinion and that is not misleading ..... anyways from actually driving his car and driving mine , and racing each other he beat me every time .... now that’s just my opinion .....you can put all these numbers and stats up but I am just stating my actual live experience ....

It’s misleading for the same reason saying “left Twix” is better than “right Twix”! Lol. Even if thats your opinion it’s still wrong because they are both equally great!

My point wasn’t that the JB4 is better than the lap3. I’m just saying they’re basically the same tool and adjust the same parameters. So anything one can do the other one can too.

If your friend has the same mods then they are simply using the lap3 to run more boost, timing, etc. Try map 3, or use logs to safely increase the boost on map 6 and I bet you smoke him next time!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I’m not denying your personal experience racing your friend. I’m just saying the facts are facts and the numbers don’t lie. Both these hybrid piggybacks are amazing products, but saying one is better than the other is funny because they are simply the same tool...

 

[Angel]

It’s misleading for the same reason saying “left Twix” is better than “right Twix”! Lol. Even if thats your opinion it’s still wrong because they are both equally great!

My point wasn’t that the JB4 is better than the lap3. I’m just saying they’re basically the same tool and adjust the same parameters. So anything one can do the other one can too.

If your friend has the same mods then they are simply using the lap3 to run more boost, timing, etc. Try map 3, or use logs to safely increase the boost on map 6 and I bet you smoke him next time!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I’m not denying your personal experience racing your friend. I’m just saying the facts are facts and the numbers don’t lie. Both these hybrid piggybacks are amazing products, but saying one is better than the other is funny because they are simply the same tool...

Based on your analysis saying there both equally great is misleading .... saying that if I run map 3 I will smoke him is misleading .... assuming he is running more boost is misleading .... those are your assumptions and opinion man... and FYI the numbers and stats look better from the pro lap 3 than the JB4 wethere there true or not ..... so no need to get very technical on me .... and the end of the day you are saying your opinion and I am saying mine ..... The end !!!! You can be team JB4 or team lap 3 you will have your bias kick in regardless and that’s ok .... I own a JB4 but I can care less about being bias or loyal to one product I am out here to experiment and try new things ....and if something is better I am going to call it how I see it ....

 

[niko]

jb4 FTW!!!

 

[washguy]

The JB4 has the ability to remove the speed limiter... just not released due to testing or something.

If I was a betting man...lol....I would say the company attorney has some input on removing the speed limiter on the car.....If someone ends up with the shiny side on the pavement, and the car was going real fast...like faster than the speed limit set by Kia in the ECU, and oh by the way the Burger box removed the speed limit set by Kia was found in the carnage....there would be some real bad days coming to BMS in a big time way....and that's why BMS gets my hard earned dollars...cause they be smart in all kinds of different ways Wash

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Based on your analysis saying there both equally great is misleading .... saying that if I run map 3 I will smoke him is misleading .... assuming he is running more boost is misleading .... those are your assumptions and opinion man... and FYI the numbers and stats look better from the pro lap 3 than the JB4 wethere there true or not ..... so no need to get very technical on me .... and the end of the day you are saying your opinion and I am saying mine ..... The end !!!! You can be team JB4 or team lap 3 you will have your bias kick in regardless and that’s ok .... I own a JB4 but I can care less about being bias or loyal to one product I am out here to experiment and try new things ....and if something is better I am going to call it how I see it ....

Bro your missing the point and I’m just trying to help you. I’m simply saying the difference between them is branding and features, not potential performance...

It’s more like trying to say Pepsi is better than Coke, or Samsung is better than Apple. They are all competing products that basically provide the same exact abilities & enjoyment, but some people like one more than the other.

Again, they are basically the same tool that monitors & adjusts the same engine parameters. Unless you can show me that the lap3 can modify anything different than the JB4, you’re just being argumentative or ignorant.

But to your points I say the following... I don’t feel it’s misleading if documented facts reinforce your statements. For example, they ARE both great because they both produced the 2nd & 3rd quickest RWD & AWD Stingers in the 1/4m!... Seeing your posts about only running map 2, and knowing map 3 makes another 20-30whp while map 6 can make a lot more, yes you can smoke him...If you both have the same upgrades then he must be running more boost or timing since those are primarily what makes more power with chips...not assumptions or opinions, educated guesses based on facts...

And not sure what stats your describing but based on their own dynos a stock Stinger makes the following:
Lap3=Peak 460tq@4500 rpm
JB4=Peak 495tq@2700 rpm
Lap3=360tq@3k vs 480tq@3k=JB4, Lap3=433tq@4k vs 440tq@4k=JB4,
Lap3=425tq@5k vs 410tq@5k=JB4,
Lap3=340tq@6k vs 340tq@6k=JB4.

That’s +120tq@3k and +35tq peak advantage for the JB4, but only a +15tq@5k advantage with the lap3 and then they are dead even at 6k. I admit the lap3 makes more power, but only from 4500-5500 rpm. So the JB4 actually makes more power for 80% of the powerband, but the lap3 makes more hp for 1k rpm.

Additionally if you compare both of their top dyno results the lap3 makes 23whp more, but 26wtq less than the JB4. However the JB4 Stinger has completely stock exhaust and all 4 cats.

You know secondary DPs make 30whp/26wtq and primary DPs with catback exhaust would make even more. The JB4 Stinger with the same DPs & exhaust would conservatively make another 40-50whp/wtq and easily push 500whp/570wtq.

So from where I’m sitting they are both amazing upgrades that can do the same things but have different priorities. Documented results point to the lap3 pushing peak HP, while the JB4 maxes low end power and a longer flatter torque curve.

IMHO the JB4 has so many advantages it’s still the superior hybrid style piggyback. Unless I see proof otherwise I wouldn’t consider anything being “better than” the JB4.

So again, im simply trying to help you understand that your example of your friends car with same mods being faster was an unfair or unequal comparison and doesn’t automatically mean the lap3 is better. I just hate when the public gets manipulated by marketing or blinded by misinformation so I just rely on facts to dictate my biases.

I agree to call it how you see it, so unless you can “show” me otherwise, they are both basically the same amazing tool for our Stinger and our opinion one way or the other has nothing to do with that fact...

 

[Angel]

Bro your missing the point and I’m just trying to help you. I’m simply saying the difference between them is branding and features, not potential performance...

It’s more like trying to say Pepsi is better than Coke, or Samsung is better than Apple. They are all competing products that basically provide the same exact abilities & enjoyment, but some people like one more than the other.

Again, they are basically the same tool that monitors & adjusts the same engine parameters. Unless you can show me that the lap3 can modify anything different than the JB4, you’re just being argumentative or ignorant.

But to your points I say the following... I don’t feel it’s misleading if documented facts reinforce your statements. For example, they ARE both great because they both produced the 2nd & 3rd quickest RWD & AWD Stingers in the 1/4m!... Seeing your posts about only running map 2, and knowing map 3 makes another 20-30whp while map 6 can make a lot more, yes you can smoke him...If you both have the same upgrades then he must be running more boost or timing since those are primarily what makes more power with chips...not assumptions or opinions, educated guesses based on facts...

And not sure what stats your describing but based on their own dynos a stock Stinger makes the following:
Lap3=Peak 460tq@4500 rpm
JB4=Peak 495tq@2700 rpm
Lap3=360tq@3k vs 480tq@3k=JB4, Lap3=433tq@4k vs 440tq@4k=JB4,
Lap3=425tq@5k vs 410tq@5k=JB4,
Lap3=340tq@6k vs 340tq@6k=JB4.
View attachment 15763 View attachment 15786
That’s +120tq@3k and +35tq peak advantage for the JB4, but only a +15tq@5k advantage with the lap3 and then they are dead even at 6k. I admit the lap3 makes more power, but only from 4500-5500 rpm. So the JB4 actually makes more power for 80% of the powerband, but the lap3 makes more hp for 1k rpm.

Additionally if you compare both of their top dyno results the lap3 makes 23whp more, but 26wtq less than the JB4. However the JB4 Stinger has completely stock exhaust and all 4 cats.
View attachment 15826 View attachment 15825
You know secondary DPs make 30whp/26wtq and primary DPs with catback exhaust would make even more. The JB4 Stinger with the same DPs & exhaust would conservatively make another 40-50whp/wtq and easily push 500whp/570wtq.

So from where I’m sitting they are both amazing upgrades that can do the same things but have different priorities. Documented results point to the lap3 pushing peak HP, while the JB4 maxes low end power and a longer flatter torque curve.

IMHO the JB4 has so many advantages it’s still the superior hybrid style piggyback. Unless I see proof otherwise I wouldn’t consider anything being “better than” the JB4.

So again, im simply trying to help you understand that your example of your friends car with same mods being faster was an unfair or unequal comparison and doesn’t automatically mean the lap3 is better. I just hate when the public gets manipulated by marketing or blinded by misinformation so I just rely on facts to dictate my biases.

I agree to call it how you see it, so unless you can “show” me otherwise, they are both basically the same amazing tool for our Stinger and our opinion one way or the other has nothing to do with that fact...

You are a winner !!! I gave you a winner badge without reading the whole post, if you took the time to write this bible out i got mad respect for you......i am not even joking......thanks for the in depth detail.......you deserve to be like forum moderator after this post.........Sal make it happen !

 

[P4RTYH4RTY]

@DaBears4Lyfe @Terry@BMS

The dyno posted from LAP3 clearly states 93 octane, while the JB4 dyno does not indicate anywhere whether 91 or 93 was used.

So I guess my question is... Was the 391hp (Map 2, Stock) on 91 or 93 octane?

 

[StungBlueGT2]

@DaBears4Lyfe @Terry@BMS

The dyno posted from LAP3 clearly states 93 octane, while the JB4 dyno does not indicate anywhere whether 91 or 93 was used.

So I guess my question is... Was the 391hp (Map 2, Stock) on 91 or 93 octane?

I believe the JB4 numbers are all achieved only on 91. Terry’s other dynos state 91, and he recently said he added octane booster to get a 93 mix for his latest 12.0@120 run.

Good catch and makes the JB4 numbers even more impressive.

 

[Terry@BMS]

It's easy to get buried in the numbers but at the end of the day, the two systems offer similar control, so can produce similar results if equally programmed.

In terms of octane used sometimes it's 91, sometimes it's E85 mix, sometimes it's 91 + a can of Lucas octane booster to make 93. I try to document it with the dyno thread on n54tech so unless our web guy added it to the site, I'd have to search for it myself. But keep in mind whatever we make on 93 octane we could probably make on 91, I just might not like how the timing curve looks. Tuning is very subjective. So we try to put forth realistic suggestions for how we'd suggest customers run the maps.

 

[P4RTYH4RTY]

Coming from the WRX community where we used the Accessport, the difference between 91 and 93 octane was usually around 15hp on tunes.

With that said, if Terry had used 91 on that Map 2, Stock dyno, and made 391hp, then I’m sure it would have been in the 400s had he used 93; bridging that 35hp gap that the OP was talking with the LAP3.

 

[Guest-279148]

What’s the output for the 2.0 stinger

 

[StungBlueGT2]

I was under the impression that the lap3 V2 added a couple features but didn’t have any performance improvements. I was recently informed that the V2 has a few new features to maximize performance and curious if or when the JB4 will have the same options as pictured below. @Terry@BMS

 

[Terry@BMS]

It's just a bad China style copy of the JB4 and many of those copied features simply don't work as well or aren't highly developed. A Lap3V2 user posted a datalog the other day showing ~1hz sampling. Literally around one sample point per second, lol.

The JB4 supports CPS and speed signal clamping but both are not implemented on the Stinger JB4 for reasons already explained. The rest of what is described there are just poorly copied versions of our dynamic AFR control and IAT spoofing.

We've also got a lot of functionality in the JB4 we don't advertise until we're ready to use it. I'm sure all those Lap3-Pro guys who paid $1200 were thrilled to find out they have to scrap that and pay $1200 again for a Lap3-ProV2 system still to come up short of the current JB4 implementation. Wait until we figure a few more things out and no doubt Lap3-ProV3 development will launch.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

It's just a bad China style copy of the JB4 and many of those copied features simply don't work as well or aren't highly developed. A Lap3V2 user posted a datalog the other day showing ~1hz sampling. Literally around one sample point per second, lol.

The JB4 supports CPS and speed signal clamping but both are not implemented on the Stinger JB4 for reasons already explained. The rest of what is described there are just poorly copied versions of our dynamic AFR control and IAT spoofing.

We've also got a lot of functionality in the JB4 we don't advertise until we're ready to use it. I'm sure all those Lap3-Pro guys who paid $1200 were thrilled to find out they have to scrap that and pay $1200 again for a Lap3-ProV2 system still to come up short of the current JB4 implementation. Wait until we figure a few more things out and no doubt Lap3-ProV3 development will launch.

I agree and exactly what I was explaining to the person that was praising the V2 as superior.

I said the lap3 pro just mimicks the features the JB4 already has, but he explained the ignition timing control wasn’t on the JB4 and would add more power. I know more timing(with proper octane) makes more power, but not 100% familiar with CPS and its advantages & disadvantages when it comes to timing advance. I’ve read that some believe it helps and some don’t. If you could summarize pros & cons so I could use it to clarify to others it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks. I now understand that the AFR & IAT controls are just a copy of features the JB4 had for a while, and that the dynamic AFR control is a much more advanced system anyway.

Lastly, how much quicker sampling does the JB4 have over the 1hz the pro V2 uses? Is it really 800/sec(JB4) vs 1/sec(lap3-proV2)? Or is the “sample points” a different value on the JB4?

 

[Terry@BMS]

CPS is a form of indirect timing control like IAT spoofing. With CPS you intercept the crank position sensor and re-transmit the signal back to the ECU delayed or advanced so that the ECU thinks TDC (top dead center) of the engine is in a different spot than it actually is. This in turn causes the ECU to start ignition timing advance in a different spot, which is the base of timing advance before all the modifiers are added in. So CPS can influence the effective engine timing up or down.

There are a few problems though. First it's an influence not a direct control as the ECU has learned adaptions that are added on which can cancel out whatever timing change you're trying to make. The second and much larger problem is TDC is used for a lot more than the ignition timing index. It's also used for fuel injection timing, valve timing, etc, so any changes there come with side effects. The more of a change made the worse the side effect. Finally combine those with the fact that the CPS sensor is really difficult to physically reach (need to get under car, some guys have to remove their exhaust, etc) all in all it just isn't a great idea for the platform. Especially since there is zero proven power benefit and other methods with fewer side effects to get the same behavior. The lap3 cars running it are all running similar trap speeds to equivalent JB4 cars, making similar dyno power, etc.

On CANbus sampling speed we have the target set for 10hz (10 sample points per second) but it can slow down to around 6hz on some cars. Running at 1hz isn't going to provide enough resolution for your engine tuning or even log analysis as a lot can happen in second between sample points.