Smart Thermostats

[boosted1g]

IT professional and DIY geek here.

I dont suggest the nest because its connectivity is 100% reliant on internet and Google's servers. No such thing as granular control on a nest.

Can you elaborate on this?

To tell your Nest to do something via your phone, the data has to go to your router, out the internet, to google's servers, then back over the internet to your router, and finally to the Nest.
A device with a local API (a way to control it over local network) simply goes from phone to router to device.

Remember a few months ago when Nests, cameras, Roombas, and a bunch of other IoT devices where down due to Amazon's AWS outage. So not only does a command have to route through Google's servers, but through Amazon's as well. One company's systems completely built/dependent upon another.
Also means the OEM can degrade features or stop allowing connectivity all together whenever they want.

 

[boosted1g]

I have the wifi honeywell and while it works well their web interface leaves a LOT to be desired. They have absolutely ZERO stat tracking. You dont know how long it ran, what temps it was set to, or anything like that. The schedule is limited to 4 slots per day. There's no official API to get stats. (I scrape their website every x minutes to graph my usage/stats).

You can adjust the temps with your phone, and integrate with google home. I bought it over nest because reviewers said the temperature swings aren't as big as the nest.

I'm with boosted1g on not liking the cloud. I was looking at the radiothermostats because they have an API that can be controlled from the LAN.

If you dont care about any of that get a nest and enjoy your nice reports and fancy app.

The CT50 gives you some usage statistics, was not aware honeywell's web interface was that bad.
Granted, I never planned to use it. I am getting the z-wave version and will build my schedule via Home Assistant

 

[JSolo]

@boosted1g
I think at this point the nest is out. I can get the ecobee from sams and test out for at least 90 days to determine if it meets my needs.

Definitely a techy/diy/nerd here. Looks like there's a github resource for creating a HA vm at Installing Home Assistant OS using Proxmox 7 . Will explore that once the thermostat is actually installed. Need to do this in baby steps.

Honeywell zwave does not require the cloud at all? A seperate zwave receiver needed or one is included with the thermostat?

Ecobee's access requires an api key from the cloud platform. If i'm understanding this correctly, HA replaces ecobee's cloud ui/app, but control still uses the cloud.

 

[boosted1g]

@boosted1g
I think at this point the nest is out. I can get the ecobee from sams and test out for at least 90 days to determine if it meets my needs.

Definitely a techy/diy/nerd here. Looks like there's a github resource for creating a HA vm at Installing Home Assistant OS using Proxmox 7 . Will explore that once the thermostat is actually installed. Need to do this in baby steps.

Honeywell zwave does not require the cloud at all? A seperate zwave receiver needed or one is included with the thermostat?

Ecobee's access requires an api key from the cloud platform. If i'm understanding this correctly, HA replaces ecobee's cloud ui/app, but control still uses the cloud.

You would need a zwave hub. You can use a USB stick, or any other hub device. I use a vera plus hub.

The trick for ecobee is to do homekit integration on home assistant, and then it will see the ecobee and connect local without cloud app. You just setup the integration through the HA gui, you don't actually need homekit hub/hardware.

I am going to let HA do all the scheduling automations for the z-wave thermostat. Will be a little involved, but gives me full control over how many time slots I want for heat and cool, will know when holiday, log what I want, and can make a wife friendly UI for it.

 

[JSolo]

^^Homekit¿? Isn't that an apple platform? Do I need any apple hardware to do the HA integration with ecobee? This is an apple free house!!

I think the best approach is to see how it goes with the default platform, then go from there. That's how I started 5 years ago with a simple nuc like pc for just the firewall which ballooned into a full blown server which now handles firewall, file server, pbx, fax, nextcloud, and some other services I can't remember.

 

[boosted1g]

^^Homekit¿? Isn't that an apple platform? Do I need any apple hardware to do the HA integration with ecobee? This is an apple free house!!

I think the best approach is to see how it goes with the default platform, then go from there. That's how I started 5 years ago with a simple nuc like pc for just the firewall which ballooned into a full blown server which now handles firewall, file server, pbx, fax, nextcloud, and some other services I can't remember.

No, you don't need any apple hardware.
You setup a "dummy" homekit integration in home assistant and then it will find and integrate any homekit enabled devices.

I would have an apple free house here as well .... except the school my wife teaches at issues them MacBook's .
I hear you on the blossom as well:

4U server is my NAS, local web server, sql server, manages backups, and manages everything for KODIs.
2U server is specifically for Blue Iris (NVR system for IP cameras)
Home Assistant is on a mini PC on the shelf in the back

Here are some of my HA dashboards:
Front page

Media players, outlets, and scripts for Living Room

Network and Services Monitor (I turned a couple things off for effect). I also get emails if anything critical is down for > 5 min

 

[JSolo]

You sir are a bigger geek than me. You win the nerd award!

The UPS says 200 watts. Is that for whole rack gear or just partial?

I'm at about 80 watts on the server and some network gear. For what I do even that's too much, but that's the price for having 7200rpm drives. They're advertised as 5400rpm (4x WD80EZAZ 8TB drives). I only later found out they were 7200. This is mostly a consumer box doing server duty (5800x, x570 motherboard, 64gb ram, dual nics).

I don't know if I want to get that sophisticated, but if HA can eliminate the need for ecobee cloud and offer the same functionality and more, i'm all in.

The kit comes with a smart door sensor. Would be cool to have it attached in the detached garage and notify when the door is open/closed. There's been cases in the past where the remote button gets pressed accidentally and the store stays open. Now I have an OCD complex where I need to check the garage door after placing remote in its spot. They say the range is 60'. That's about how far the garage is from the thermostat, but goes through several windows and walls.

 

[boosted1g]

You sir are a bigger geek than me. You win the nerd award!

The UPS says 200 watts. Is that for whole rack gear or just partial?

I'm at about 80 watts on the server and some network gear. For what I do even that's too much, but that's the price for having 7200rpm drives. They're advertised as 5400rpm (4x WD80EZAZ 8TB drives). I only later found out they were 7200. This is mostly a consumer box doing server duty (5800x, x570 motherboard, 64gb ram, dual nics).

I don't know if I want to get that sophisticated, but if HA can eliminate the need for ecobee cloud and offer the same functionality and more, i'm all in.

The kit comes with a smart door sensor. Would be cool to have it attached in the detached garage and notify when the door is open/closed. There's been cases in the past where the remote button gets pressed accidentally and the store stays open. Now I have an OCD complex where I need to check the garage door after placing remote in its spot. They say the range is 60'. That's about how far the garage is from the thermostat, but goes through several windows and walls.

That's 200w for the entire rack. 2 server PCs, 1 mini PC, and 2 network switches. Main server has 8 hdd plus the 2 NVME drives, most 7200 rpms. The Server and Blue Iris info is from a tool called Network Hardware Monitor.
On battery, HA has lowest priority, then it shuts down main server, then lastly Blue Iris (the POE switch the cameras are connected to is on its own UPS). When power comes back a script on router sends WoL to the servers.

For garage I have a Shelly One connected to garage wires and a magnetic reed switch for control and monitoring. Then if door is open for 20 min it emails me.

PM me if you need any help with integrations or if you want to see my (redacted) config files

 

[Stephen Brubaker]

Have you done what they use to in the old days. Close off the rooms you never use and only heat and cool the ones you use.

 

[nhcowboy28]

Have you done what they use to in the old days. Close off the rooms you never use and only heat and cool the ones you use.

Dammit.

I also have all my windows and exterior doors open…. Would that make a difference?

 

[Chark]

Adding a humidifier in the winter will help make it feel warmer inside at a lower temperature. Cold air cannot hold much moisture already, and heating it up dries it out even more. That causes your sweat to evaporate and you feel colder. But if your insulation or windows aren't very good, you might end up with condensation. Also, check and see if they have a budget option where you pay the same every month, as opposed to high gas bills in the winter heating season and low bills in the cooling season.

 

[stoopid]

That's 200w for the entire rack. 2 server PCs, 1 mini PC, and 2 network switches. Main server has 8 hdd plus the 2 NVME drives, most 7200 rpms. The Server and Blue Iris info is from a tool called Network Hardware Monitor.
On battery, HA has lowest priority, then it shuts down main server, then lastly Blue Iris (the POE switch the cameras are connected to is on its own UPS). When power comes back a script on router sends WoL to the servers.

For garage I have a Shelly One connected to garage wires and a magnetic reed switch for control and monitoring. Then if door is open for 20 min it emails me.

PM me if you need any help with integrations or if you want to see my (redacted) config files

Are you in IT? Seems like work, I mean it literally. Last thing I do is tinker after doing it all week. I've transitioned to a less-is-more home framework, only thing I still do is backup to a usb hard drive. No automation, etc. I don't even game anymore. I get alerts if the house temp goes too high. My Blink cameras are set for vacation and/or late night. I have a Roku. That's it.

Linus Tech Tips fulfills my vicarious interest in tech. He spends all the money and time, I benefit from watching him sweat the issues.

Of what I can glean from your post(s), it would seem you're trying to keep as much of the automation controls internal, which is wise. Having door controls connected to the web is a recipe for some unpatch zero day hack to allow entry. Downfall with being the admin is with any software being used having its own set of potential vulnerabilities, and needing to stay up on patches and best deployment/management practices.

Maybe I'm getting old and paranoid, but having watched tech from its infancy I don't trust any of it. All communications systems have had some critical vulnerability discovered, some of them multiple times/ongoing. The internet just makes it all that much easier for a bad actor to attempt access. Don't even need to get in their car.

/grumpy ole admin

 

[boosted1g]

Are you in IT? Seems like work, I mean it literally. Last thing I do is tinker after doing it all week. I've transitioned to a less-is-more home framework, only thing I still do is backup to a usb hard drive. No automation, etc. I don't even game anymore. I get alerts if the house temp goes too high. My Blink cameras are set for vacation and/or late night. I have a Roku. That's it.

Linus Tech Tips fulfills my vicarious interest in tech. He spends all the money and time, I benefit from watching him sweat the issues.

Of what I can glean from your post(s), it would seem you're trying to keep as much of the automation controls internal, which is wise. Having door controls connected to the web is a recipe for some unpatch zero day hack to allow entry. Maybe I'm getting old and paranoid, but having watched tech from its infancy I don't trust any of it. All communications systems have had some critical vulnerability discovered, some of them multiple times/ongoing. The internet just makes it all that much easier for a bad actor to attempt access. Don't even need to get in their car.

/grumpy ole admin

I used to be IT Admin, but my current role is more a system SME for radio based networks (and all of the documentation/paperwork that comes with it); thus I do not get the burnout like you are suggesting. I just say "im in IT" because it is much simpler.
I am also just a DIY tinkerer at heart, so I cant help but get the itch at times, whether it is with IT, cars, or some other home improvement project.

Exactly right on me keeping as much as possible internal. All of my cameras, wifi relays etc are even blocked from internet access on my network.
Yeah, it cracks me up all of these "smart" door locks. At best their Bluetooth or WIFI connection is often insecure, at worst they are not even made by a lock company and the lock itself is total crap.

 

[JSolo]

Got the ecobee installed without blowing up the house

Got it set up with 2 sensors. The built in temp sensor and an aux temp sensor ~15' away. So far there seems to be a ~2 deg temp difference between the two. At some point tonight I'll place both sensors near one another to see if they read the same temp. Thermostat is somewhat obstructed by furniture so it's very possible its temp is off compared to other parts of the living room.

Appears there's a multitude of ways to determine when the heat turns on.

1) Based on avg between thermostat AND sensor readings
2) Based on thermostat OR sensor reading (or a combination average of selected sensors/thermostat if multiple sensors present)
3) Duty cycle threshold - turn heat on after temp differential is .5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, or 3 degrees below (or above) set point.

This last option is interesting. Default is .5deg (for comfort), I have it set to 1 (for economy). The unit permits different values for heat and cooling.

Need to get some baseline numbers then can tweak further.

 

[JSolo]

After nearly 24 hours of data, I can tell the smart sensors are useless. Customer support said they transmit data every 15 seconds. Based on the graph below, with the sensors right next to the thermostat, their response to temp changes is abysmal. No drafts or other air leaks near the tstat. Hole with tstat cable is sealed with putty.

Red/blue lines are the sensors, orange is the tstat. Note when heat is on (orange bar), tstat temp rises accordingly, but sensor temp does so at a muuuuuuuuuuuuch slower rate.

You can see between 12am and 1am (with heat off), the 3 lines nearly converge, indicating all 3 are reading roughly the same temps.

This translates into excessive run time if the sensors are part of the program, and excessive off time before heat restarts. Lots of reports on reddit about similar, yet some claim they respond just as quick as the tstat does <confused>.

 

[RedCal]

After nearly 24 hours of data, I can tell the smart sensors are useless. Customer support said they transmit data every 15 seconds. Based on the graph below, with the sensors right next to the thermostat, their response to temp changes is abysmal. No drafts or other air leaks near the tstat. Hole with tstat cable is sealed with putty.

Red/blue lines are the sensors, orange is the tstat. Note when heat is on (orange bar), tstat temp rises accordingly, but sensor temp does so at a muuuuuuuuuuuuch slower rate.

You can see between 12am and 1am (with heat off), the 3 lines nearly converge, indicating all 3 are reading roughly the same temps.

This translates into excessive run time if the sensors are part of the program, and excessive off time before heat restarts. Lots of reports on reddit about similar, yet some claim they respond just as quick as the tstat does <confused>.

If the smart sensors also occupancy sensors, the data may get dismissed, or downgraded if there is no one detected in the room. "smart" may also hint that they are programmed with someone else's idea of smart lol

 

[boosted1g]

Man, that is terrible.
Yeah, if the ecobee was relying on that info to turn off the system, you would have one hell of a utility bill.

I am assuming you made sure there is no film or nothing blocking the temp probes?
So are you thinking of sending back the ecobee, just scrapping the sensors, or try incorporating your own sensors?

 

[JSolo]

@RedCal Good point. During the sleep program, the system is configured to ignore occupancy status. The sensor temp readings should still correlate better (faster) with rise/fall of temps, no?

@boosted, the costco package came with one, the other I borrowed from a neighbor who wasn't using it (maybe for the same reason?). I'm still playing around with temps, deltas, etc. One goal is to obtain similar level of comfort/gas usage as I had with the old tstat, then tweak settings to achieve additional utility savings. With costco's generous return policy I can bring it back at any time .

Edit: Been at this house for 2+ decades. During which, there's always been a single tstat. At ~1400 sq ft, it relatively small to need additional sensors. During day time, it may make sense to take an avg from the tstat and common areas to keep common areas more comfortable but not necessary. This would just be wasteful in the unoccupied areas.

 

[RedCal]

@RedCal Good point. During the sleep program, the system is configured to ignore occupancy status. The sensor temp readings should still correlate better (faster) with rise/fall of temps, no?

@boosted, the costco package came with one, the other I borrowed from a neighbor who wasn't using it (maybe for the same reason?). I'm still playing around with temps, deltas, etc. One goal is to obtain similar level of comfort/gas usage as I had with the old tstat, then tweak settings to achieve additional utility savings. With costco's generous return policy I can bring it back at any time .

Edit: Been at this house for 2+ decades. During which, there's always been a single tstat. At ~1400 sq ft, it relatively small to need additional sensors. During day time, it may make sense to take an avg from the tstat and common areas to keep common areas more comfortable but not necessary. This would just be wasteful in the unoccupied areas.

They totally should work better, but in my experience, unless they give you complete control, "smart" devices generally miss the mark, as they are programmed based on "common use case", or ideals, or what some software program is set to do.... but and I will fully admit, I am both biased, and a control freak lol (former life - did home automation, lights, HVAC, audio, security, video, the full meal deal)

 

[JSolo]

^^You're telling me! I got this garbage from netgear called orbi. It's supposed to help improve wifi performance/eliminate dead spots, etc. It delivers on that (800 mbps on a 80mhz wifi6 connection (AX)). However, as a router, it's complete trash. No granular control at all, totally dumbed down consumer device. Not even console access.

My main firewall is Sophos UTM. About 75% as powerful as pfsense and 1000% more options/control than any consumer grade home router. Is there a thermostat version of this?