Performance intercooler upgrade

[Volfy]

it needs to be cooled after it has been charged because the air expands when it is compressed...............

I will type more slowly so that you can gather your thoughts when you read it again.......

When you compress the air.............the air heats up....................and it expands again.................so yes.....it expands whilst you are compressing it.......which is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve................so the CLUE is in the name............

INTERCOOLER

so what this does is this.....

the process is......

Expel the exhaust
drive the turbine
Compress the air
Air heats up again as it is compressed
Cool the air again through the INTERCOOLER (clue is in the name)
the air contracts again allowing more air to be forced into the engine
This allows MORE air to be compressed and repeat the cycle

Now that wasn't hard.....

Aye Caramba. I see that you understood the process mostly correctly, but you lack the proper lexicon to explain it properly, which ends up making you sound nonsensical.

The proper way to explain this is...

First, starting with the diagram below.


A. At (1), the air is roughly at 1 bar (atmospheric pressure) and, typically at ambient temp (say 80F).

B. As this incoming is drawn through the turbocharger, it mostly undergoes an adiabatic compression. That is, work is done by the turbocharger to increase the energy state of incoming air. I say "mostly", because there is a little bit of heat transfer from the extremely hot turbine side of the turbocharge into the compressor side. However, the process is still dominated by the adiabatic compression.

C. This results in higher pressure (say, 2 bar) and higher temp (say, 200F) at (2).

D. If this high temp charge air is pumped directly into the combustion chamber, the higher IAT will increase the likelihood of pinging, so fuel with an even higher octane would be required. Or the ECU would have to retard ignition timing to reduce peak cylinder pressure/temp, which hurts HP. Besides, hotter air is less dense, which further hurts HP. The solution is, of course, an intercooler.

E. Through the intercooler (3), the intake charge air undergoes an isobaric compression. That is, heat is removed from charge air. The result is usually either reduced volume and/or reduced pressure, per ideal gas law (P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2). However, because the turbocharger provides a continuous stream of incoming charge air into this entire plenum, it compresses the cooled charge air to maintain the same pressure as (2). The overall result is a cooler denser air at the same pressure.

F. So... at (4), the charge air become cooler (say 120F) at the same 2bar pressure. This denser air packs more air molecules into the combustion chamber for each cycle, producing optimum HP.

 

[Volfy]

Now, to answer the question of whether a reflash is required with a higher-performing intercooler...

Bear in mind all the intercooler does is change the IAT. As long as the ECU knows how much air mass is being pumped into each combustion cycle, it knows how much fuel to meter against that amount of air mass. Therefore, no ECU reflash should be necessary.

 

[Ah GetFd]

you should probably know what you are talking about before a trash talking post like this.
I'll correct all your false statements for you.
First post, all diesels do not have turbos. Some are NA (I own one), some are turbo and some are supercharged. SOME turbo diesels have intercoolers, many do NOT as it is NOT necessary in a diesel because diesels are compression ignition engines so auto ignition is not an issue in diesels. Intercoolers do in fact help but are not standard on many diesels, particularly off road applications.

When air is compressed it heats up. No clue where you are going with the "it expands when it is compressed thing" as it does not. If you simply heated a volume of gas in a space that heat input would cause expansion. That does not apply when the heat is built solely from compression. (this is a property of gases and the same thing happens when you expand a gas with no heat input or output) The intercooler is then used to remove that heat as we all know, which does NOT then contract it as it would if you simply cooled a volume of air in a container, two different things.
I'm guessing maybe you think that because intercoolers always have some pressure drop from input to output but that is simply due to the inherent flow restriction of any heat exchanger. They're needed in gas forced induction engines simply because of the auto ignition problem with a hot intake charge.

Thanks for "typing slowly so I could gather my thoughts" but yeah, you should probably sit this one out.

""When air is compressed it heats up. No clue where you are going with the "it expands when it is compressed thing" as it does not.

WRONG. That's why you need an INTERCOOLER, the subject of this original post....


As I worked in International Sales for the largest diesel generator company in the world.....ALL good quality Diesel Engines have turbochargers. I am sorry that your low quality sedan did not....

The INTERCOOLER is there for one reason and one reason only......otherwise you wouldn't need one.....

It is to COOL the charged air, that has been HEATED by COMPRESSING it. But by heating it, it also EXPANDS again.

So you COOL it whilst it is COMPRESSED which makes it SHRINK.

That allows you to compress more air into a smaller space

That is the WHOLE IDEA of an INTERCOOLER or you wouldn't NEED one. Get it? Capiche?

It is not HARD

You learnt something today and the next time you want to berate me, remember, you started it and got a bucket load back..

And if you did a reply to the message I deleted it without reading so I am sorry, but I will never know what you said....but I expect it was something pretty dumb.

Schooled.

 

[Ah GetFd]

Aye Caramba. I see that you understood the process mostly correctly, but you lack the proper lexicon to explain it properly, which ends up making you sound nonsensical.

The proper way to explain this is...

First, starting with the diagram below.

View attachment 87224
A. At (1), the air is roughly at 1 bar (atmospheric pressure) and, typically at ambient temp (say 80F).

B. As this incoming is drawn through the turbocharger, it mostly undergoes an adiabatic compression. That is, work is done by the turbocharger to increase the energy state of incoming air. I say "mostly", because there is a little bit of heat transfer from the extremely hot turbine side of the turbocharge into the compressor side. However, the process is still dominated by the adiabatic compression.

C. This results in higher pressure (say, 2 bar) and higher temp (say, 200F) at (2).

D. If this high temp charge air is pumped directly into the combustion chamber, the higher IAT will increase the likelihood of pinging, so fuel with an even higher octane would be required. Or the ECU would have to retard ignition timing to reduce peak cylinder pressure/temp, which hurts HP. Besides, hotter air is less dense, which further hurts HP. The solution is, of course, an intercooler.

E. Through the intercooler (3), the intake charge air undergoes an isobaric compression. That is, heat is removed from charge air. The result is usually either reduced volume and/or reduced pressure, per ideal gas law (P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2). However, because the turbocharger provides a continuous stream of incoming charge air into this entire plenum, it compresses the cooled charge air to maintain the same pressure as (2). The overall result is a cooler denser air at the same pressure.

F. So... at (4), the charge air become cooler (say 120F) at the same 2bar pressure. This denser air packs more air molecules into the combustion chamber for each cycle, producing optimum HP.

I tried to keep it simple but you can only work so hard.....


F. So... at (4), the charge air become cooler (say 120F) at the same 2bar pressure. This denser air packs more air molecules into the combustion chamber for each cycle, producing optimum HP.

Gee, I wonder how it packs more molecules in? Denser air.........what does that mean. More compressed? Duh.

What happens when you compress it Einstein? Heats. Doh.

"Because it was heated by compressing it and therefore EXPANDING it again.....so that's why it had to be cooled by ....wait for it......."

THE INTERCOOLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you can get more in. Duh.

Taught by experts.

 

[Volfy]

Well, you just keep going at it... Just about everybody who could not understand what you wrote here have every reason to be thoroughly confused. Your explanations were - and continue to be - about as clear as the excrement from a dying cholera patient. And stink about as bad. Also, everybody here has every right to object to your indignant condescension, after they poked fun at your poorly worded explanations.

So, let's just stop this right here. You keep saying the intake charge air experiences compression and EXPANSION in the intake track, repeatedly. It does not. Period.

As I mentioned above, the intake charge air goes through two compression stages - first, adiabatic in the turbo charger, then second, isobaric in the intercooler. There are NO expansion of any kind. Conceptually, or empirically.


Granted, thermodynamics is a tough subject many engineering students struggle with. Even very smart ones. When I took it decades ago, more than 1/3 of the class failed and had to take it again the next semester. My son took it 2yrs ago and told me the attrition rate was about as bad. Many of the thermodynamic concepts are just tough to grasp.

While I'm sure you have been successful in your own life's endeavors, and you might be justifiably proud of them. Trying to explain enthalpy in this thread ain't one of them.

A man's got to know his limitations.

 

[Ah GetFd]

Well, you just keep going at it... Just about everybody who could not understand what you wrote here have every reason to be thoroughly confused. Your explanations were - and continue to be - about as clear as the excrement from a dying cholera patient. And stink about as bad. Also, everybody here has every right to object to your indignant condescension, after they poked fun at your poorly worded explanations.

So, let's just stop this right here. You keep saying the intake charge air experiences compression and EXPANSION in the intake track, repeatedly. It does not. Period.

As I mentioned above, the intake charge air goes through two compression stages - first, adiabatic in the turbo charger, then second, isobaric in the intercooler. There are NO expansion of any kind. Conceptually, or empirically.


Granted, thermodynamics is a tough subject many engineering students struggle with. Even very smart ones. When I took it decades ago, more than 1/3 of the class failed and had to take it again the next semester. My son took it 2yrs ago and told me the attrition rate was about as bad. Many of the thermodynamic concepts are just tough to grasp.

While I'm sure you have been successful in your own life's endeavors, and you might be justifiably proud of them. Trying to explain enthalpy in this thread ain't one of them.

A man's got to know his limitations.

Your limitations are certainly English.

As John Cleese said "we actually speak English and only go down on one knee in front of our Monarch...and when we have a world championship..........we actually invite other nations.....

You said "It does not. Period.

You used the period twice. One as the Full Stop then spelt it as "period"

A really dumb way of emphasising a full stop.

Now, if you had said "It does not Period Then you would have replaced the full stop with the word PERIOD then it would make sense

So trying to emphasise the full stop by using it then writing it again as "period" didn't emphasise your statement at all.

It just made it look STUPID.

And just on that the USA caused the biggest IT outage in Global history today. Australia copped it first because the idiots in Austin Texas decided to do an update "at night" forgetting that there are other countries in the world where it is "DAY".

Time starts in Australia and New Zealand and the USA gets "today" last so it's understandable that you are a "little" behind.

I guess that dumbarse company will be handing back every one of those $83 Billion to every airline, supermarket and hospital IN THE WORLD it disrupted then go broke because what industry would ever use those idiots again?

So, you can get into pedantics as to how Intercoolers work.

I don't take it that seriously that I have to get all bogged down with who studied what 3 decades ago and half the students in America failed but your son passed or whatever................

I called you Voldemort and there it sticks.

I guess that expansion in your car tyres when they get hot is not the air......................

The King's English says it is spelt TYRE by the way......

 

[rtv900]

And if you did a reply to the message I deleted it without reading so I am sorry, but I will never know what you said....but I expect it was something pretty dumb.

Schooled.

no need to bother with your other nonsense at this point, but this line is funny so I'll address it for the people who wouldn't know.
^This dude actually took the time to PM me a rage message because he was so angry about my "I'll have what he's on" comment.
Called me a bonehead and said if I don't have anything worth while to add then shutthefuckup (that's how he typed the last phrase)

My reply was: "project much"
which I thought was pretty accurate at the time and now that I see his subsequent responses I now KNOW it was accurate.

Well, you just keep going at it... Just about everybody who could not understand what you wrote here have every reason to be thoroughly confused.

As another person who took, and passed, thermo about 25 years ago now, I also agree it no easy subject.
Fluid Dynamics and Differential equations are probably the only things harder.

 

[rtv900]

I guess that expansion in your car tyres when they get hot is not the air......................

couldn't help it
Sigh
He explained, as I did, that these two things are different processes.
Adding heat to air in a space WILL cause expansion, Same as cooling it will contract it. The heat energy input or output is the only thing you are doing to change volume.
Heat created by compressing a gas is a different process. And the cooling by expansion alone is the opposite process. Frankly, this is precisely how an air conditioner works moving a compressible fluid from one heat exchanger to another, compressing, dumping heat to atmosphere, expanding, putting heat from the house into that newly cooled fluid, and repeating that process over and over again.
Also how a compression ignition engine works which you must be well aware of being a super duper diesel engine guy. Guess where that heat energy comes from when a 20:1 piston moves up a cylinder with no spark plug?

Two different things dude.

 

[bfglitch]

Honestly I have no clue why everyone wastes their time replying to him.

As for the actual topic of the thread which has obviously been derailed....

The question was do you need to tune/reflash ECU etc if you change out the intercooler. I believe that has been answered.