Drive Mode Question

[JSolo]

I've often wondered about this. Lets say you're going fast and downshift several gears while on ice (no brakes involved). Wouldn't the net effect still be loss of control? Why or why not?

 

[5tinger]

I suppose engine braking is a lot more subtle than actual braking. And zero chance of wheel lock.

 

[Devin]

I've often wondered about this. Lets say you're going fast and downshift several gears while on ice (no brakes involved). Wouldn't the net effect still be loss of control? Why or why not?

There are equations for this, but the best way to look at it is the hydraulic brake system's ultimate goal is to stop the wheel from rotating. Though in most circumstances the slowing to stop is gradual. Ice makes it very easy to do what the brakes want to do: stop rotating. And once they stop rotating the car is merely ballistic and you become a passenger. Engine braking (compression braking) does not stop the wheels from rotating. All it does is change gear so that the engine has to work harder to rotate the wheels as fast as they were once moving. Without extra input into the throttle, the wheels rotate slower.

With any change to inputs on ice, such as braking, accelerating or turning, the friction coefficient will change and then the wheels may break loose and lose traction. Knowing how your tires and drivetrain will behave depending on conditions is the only way to be safe.

 

[Legendsk]

I've driven on snow and ice for a very long time. The best advice I can offer is: Pretend you are in a boat with no paddles or propeller.
It is going to take a long time / distance to drift to a stop, or to get moving. Pay close attention to what is around you, especially in front. What little traction you have will disappear the moment you apply too much brake or accelerator and you will be completely out of control.

I try to convince the kids or students that you have a steering wheel, brake and accelerator so you can choose your direction, slow down or speed up and it feels like you are in control. But under the best of circumstances, it is an illusion. You are actually about 1/2 second from something happening that is totally out of your control and all you can do is watch it happen.

Ice is a good example of this.

 

[therealveal]

I've driven on snow and ice for a very long time. The best advice I can offer is: Pretend you are in a boat with no paddles or propeller.
It is going to take a long time / distance to drift to a stop, or to get moving. Pay close attention to what is around you, especially in front. What little traction you have will disappear the moment you apply too much brake or accelerator and you will be completely out of control.

I try to convince the kids or students that you have a steering wheel, brake and accelerator so you can choose your direction, slow down or speed up and it feels like you are in control. But under the best of circumstances, it is an illusion. You are actually about 1/2 second from something happening that is totally out of your control and all you can do is watch it happen.

Ice is a good example of this.

Thank you for the advice. I'm a very careful driver. I had lots of space between the car in front of my. I was more worried about the truck behind me or the on coming traffic hitting me as I spun into the other lane. The issue wasn't excessive speed or any kind of obstacles. I was actually preparing to move over into the turn lane when it started to spin. My foot was barely on the gas. Id guess 10 miles an hour. My entire drive had been fine up until this one stretch of about 25 feet or so.

 

[D.J.]

I've driven on snow and ice for a very long time. The best advice I can offer is: Pretend you are in a boat with no paddles or propeller.
It is going to take a long time / distance to drift to a stop, or to get moving. Pay close attention to what is around you, especially in front. What little traction you have will disappear the moment you apply too much brake or accelerator and you will be completely out of control.

I try to convince the kids or students that you have a steering wheel, brake and accelerator so you can choose your direction, slow down or speed up and it feels like you are in control. But under the best of circumstances, it is an illusion. You are actually about 1/2 second from something happening that is totally out of your control and all you can do is watch it happen.

Ice is a good example of this.

Similarly..

I remember years ago at a motorcycle trackday, the instructor said something that is just common sense, but often not though about (applies to cars as well).

You can only ever have up to 100% traction. If you are using 85% of your traction in a corner/turn, you only have 15% left for acceleration or braking. If you exceed the 100%.... Your are gonna panic quickfast.

If you are already at the limit of cornering traction and you stab the brake or gas, you are in for a ride.

Modern cars have many nannies to attempt to prevent bed outcome (traction control, torque vectoring, stability control, ABS).

 

[rmod]

Studs > snow > winter perf > all season > summer.

Or…. Buy a jeep.

+1 for the Jeep. You will still spin out and end up in the ditch....but at least you'll be able to get out without help...provided you are still upright.

 

[Crisis]

As a 2022 model, I can see why you wouldn't want to change tires while yours are relatively new, but I would still strongly consider a change to All-Weather tires. Note that these are not the same as All-Season tires. An All-Weather tire has a rubber compound that will stay soft and provide significantly improved traction at temperatures of 40F and under compared to an All-Season tire.

This page gives a decent overview of the advantages of an All-Weather tire:

Discount Tire | Tires and Wheels for Sale | Online & In-Person

www.discounttire.com

While not as good in snow and ice as a dedicated winter tire, All-Weather tires are much better in those conditions than All-Season, while still allowing you to run one set of tires year round. To me, this type of tires would be a good choice for the Pacific Northwest climate. I've had good success with the Nokian WRG4 and their predecessors. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Redleg94]

As a 2022 model, I can see why you wouldn't want to change tires while yours are relatively new, but I would still strongly consider a change to All-Weather tires. Note that these are not the same as All-Season tires. An All-Weather tire has a rubber compound that will stay soft and provide significantly improved traction at temperatures of 40F and under compared to an All-Season tire.

This page gives a decent overview of the advantages of an All-Weather tire:

Discount Tire | Tires and Wheels for Sale | Online & In-Person

www.discounttire.com

While not as good in snow and ice as a dedicated winter tire, All-Weather tires are much better in those conditions than All-Season, while still allowing you to run one set of tires year round. To me, this type of tires would be a good choice for the Pacific Northwest climate. I've had good success with the Nokian WRG4 and their predecessors. Just my 2 cents.

I'd agree, and was the path I was going to go down for my 22 GT1. I knew that I wanted a different wheel and tire set up for the summer, so initially I was looking to just get All Weather tires to fit the stock 19 inch wheels, but I couldn't find any all weather tires that had both the front and rear sizes. The Nokian WRG4 is only made in the correct size for the front, and not the rear. Another one was only the rear. If you're going to go to an all-weather tire, then you really need to go to a square setup, which means at least 2 new wheels.

 

[G70LEbyAdoom]

+1 for the Jeep. You will still spin out and end up in the ditch....but at least you'll be able to get out without help...provided you are still upright.

It just has to be a jeep made after 2005ish, as every single vehicle they have made after that is complete garbage and will break if a person looks at it the wrong way. Thanks FCA

 

[Devin]

It just has to be a jeep made after 2005ish, as every single vehicle they have made after that is complete garbage and will break if a person looks at it the wrong way. Thanks FCA (Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist)

So you are telling me I can make Jeeps break down just by mean mugging them? I know what I'm doing this afternoon.

 

[nhcowboy28]

It just has to be a jeep made after 2005ish, as every single vehicle they have made after that is complete garbage and will break if a person looks at it the wrong way. Thanks FCA (Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist)

2012 rubi 105k miles. Not a single issue. Manual.

 

[chad1064]

I've grown up and lived through Wisconsin/Michigan/Minnesota winters my entire life, and I have only ever had all season tires. While I don't want to tell someone to not get winter tires if they absolutely need them, in my experience all season tires plus good winter driving skills are often plenty for 99% of winter conditions. I've put 6,000 miles on my Stinger, the majority in snow conditions, and I've been pretty impressed with the AWD and stock all season tires.

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread about winter driving. My tips:
- Don't use the throttle to test slippery conditions. I could do that in my previous FWD cars, because if the front tires break traction, the worst that would happen would be the front end shifting slightly before traction control kicks in. But with the Stinger, even with AWD and even in ECO mode, it will send the majority of the power to the rear wheels. If you blimp the throttle to do a traction check, the worst case scenario is the rear end breaking loose before the center diff pushes max 40% power to the front wheels and traction control kicks in.
- Brake to test slippery conditions. Don't do a full on panic stop. When it's safe to do so, apply the brakes until the ABS kicks on, or until you feel like you have an understanding of current surface conditions. Better to test the surface conditions before you need to know the surface conditions (a curve coming up for example).
- In general, aim for smooth inputs. Drive like you have a glass of water in your car that's filled to the top; slow acceleration, slow stopping, slow turning, bla bla bla.

As for drive mode, stay out of anything sport. For me, I find the throttle too sensitive and I don't want the car doing aggressive upshifts/downshifts. I also find ECO too muted... (? for lack of better word). The throttle mapping is so sluggish, the transmission is so reluctant to upshift, and the engine can make so much torque down low, that I've had a trickier time in the snow with ECO vs. comfort.

 

[stoopid]

I've grown up and lived through Wisconsin/Michigan/Minnesota winters my entire life, and I have only ever had all season tires. While I don't want to tell someone to not get winter tires if they absolutely need them, in my experience all season tires plus good winter driving skills are often plenty for 99% of winter conditions. I've put 6,000 miles on my Stinger, the majority in snow conditions, and I've been pretty impressed with the AWD and stock all season tires...

Agree with this and a lot of posts on here. Wanted to add my vote for staying home when conditions aren't great and/or the roads aren't down to pavement (plows/salt are not used or haven't completely finished their work). No matter how important any of us *think* our work is, and how necessary it is for us to do it from some arbitrary location, if reviewed objectively many would agree we don't *have* to drive anywhere if conditions are poor or potentially dangerous. There's only a handful of places in the US where living requires snow/studded tires in the winter. Living in Upstate NY I could stay home the one or two times a season where the storm was big enough or icy enough. Otherwise, for the remaining places that have winter for several months straight, they buy vehicles appropriate to the expected conditions and/or proper tires.

Being that you live where it rarely has poor driving conditions, maybe just stay home next time. Not worth a capital investment for the off chance of it happening again.

Eco mode is probably fine. Light throttle in any mode is the most important factor.

 

[JSolo]

^^The mess in VA is a good example. Yes, plows should of already been stationed on the interstate in various area ready to go once the the rain changed to snow. More people should have stayed home. To get stuck on the hwy over night... insanity. US becoming a third world country....

 

[D.J.]

I also find ECO too muted... (? for lack of better word). The throttle mapping is so sluggish, the transmission is so reluctant to upshift, and the engine can make so much torque down low, that I've had a trickier time in the snow with ECO vs. comfort.

The only difference between ECO and comfort is that A/C performance is reduced in ECO.

Are you sure you feel a difference in the accelerator pedal mapping?

**Edited by D.J. this post is incorrect! Oops.**

 

[D.J.]

I've grown up and lived through Wisconsin/Michigan/Minnesota winters my entire life, and I have only ever had all season tires. While I don't want to tell someone to not get winter tires if they absolutely need them, in my experience all season tires plus good winter driving skills are often plenty for 99% of winter conditions. I've put 6,000 miles on my Stinger, the majority in snow conditions, and I've been pretty impressed with the AWD and stock all season tires.

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread about winter driving. My tips:
- Don't use the throttle to test slippery conditions. I could do that in my previous FWD cars, because if the front tires break traction, the worst that would happen would be the front end shifting slightly before traction control kicks in. But with the Stinger, even with AWD and even in ECO mode, it will send the majority of the power to the rear wheels. If you blimp the throttle to do a traction check, the worst case scenario is the rear end breaking loose before the center diff pushes max 40% power to the front wheels and traction control kicks in.
- Brake to test slippery conditions. Don't do a full on panic stop. When it's safe to do so, apply the brakes until the ABS kicks on, or until you feel like you have an understanding of current surface conditions. Better to test the surface conditions before you need to know the surface conditions (a curve coming up for example).
- In general, aim for smooth inputs. Drive like you have a glass of water in your car that's filled to the top; slow acceleration, slow stopping, slow turning, bla bla bla.

As for drive mode, stay out of anything sport. For me, I find the throttle too sensitive and I don't want the car doing aggressive upshifts/downshifts. I also find ECO too muted... (? for lack of better word). The throttle mapping is so sluggish, the transmission is so reluctant to upshift, and the engine can make so much torque down low, that I've had a trickier time in the snow with ECO vs. comfort.

My apologies for my previous post.

You are correct about the Eco mode having different throttle mapping.

I am not sure what I was thinking of, but I was wrong.

 

[P22Tyler]

Engine braking is a must in a lot of situations in the snow in any vehicle. Holding a lower gear will just keep the car slower without you having to hit the brakes and lock up, when you do brake you can do so gently and avoid problems because as soon as you lift the vehicle will begin to slow gently. It's very sound advice and should definitely be heeded.