Carbon Cleaning

[Paladin611]

Greetings,

I have a 2018 3.3 GT, and it has been nursed with top quality fuel since it was new. I have come to the junction where I am looking into a carbon cleaning of the intake valves, which has never been performed. My car has 63k on the odo and isn't used every single day. I'd say it is driven between 10-12k miles per year, and usually sits the majority of the winter. I've never noticed any loss of performance other that a time where I needed a spark plug change, so I am wondering what the level of carbon build up would be in my manifold. Is this a serious concern for the Stinger? I know that responsible maintenance would see that this procedure would get done, but I also know that the state of carbon build up on some Stinger's might be negligible. Has anyone here with a 3.3 taken apart their intake manifold and found a mess of carbon buildup on the valves and the manifold walls? Or was it relatively clean? How many miles on the car? Any insight on other owner's experiences with this procedure would be helpful to me. Thanks in advance!

 

[oddball]

There are a lot of variables, including what type of oil you use and if you have a catch can. It would be best to do a visual inspection first to see if it's necessary. A borescope can be snaked down after taking off the throttle body, or the upper manifold can be removed with maybe an hour of work.

 

[Alpinesting]

With any engine that has direct injection, carbon is always an issue. Most car makers now use this approach. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc use this. Just do the maintenance when it needs to be done and use techron fuel injector cleaner or whatever once a oil change cycle. A catch can is useful if you drive the car as a daily driver as it will help you get the carbon out. Just my advise. Main thing is to change your oil at intervals.

 

[D.J.]

With any engine that has direct injection, carbon is always an issue. Most car makers now use this approach. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc use this. Just do the maintenance when it needs to be done and use techron fuel injector cleaner or whatever once a oil change cycle. A catch can is useful if you drive the car as a daily driver as it will help you get the carbon out. Just my advise. Main thing is to change your oil at intervals.

Using techron [or any fuel injector cleaner] periodically in your fuel tank will not have any impact whatsoever on the intake valve carbon buildup.

 

[Alpinesting]

Well then, I stand corrected. But I will follow my service intervals thank you very much. Walnut blast a 100k?

 

[D.J.]

Well then, I stand corrected. But I will follow my service intervals thank you very much. Walnut blast a 100k?

I would recommend following the factory service intervals... which doesn't include any media blast interval.

I think media blast valve cleaning should be done "as needed" only.

Media blasting every 100k miles (160k KMs) is probably not going to hurt anything... just not sure it is required.

Hopefully someone shares with us some pictures with an HD endoscope...

If I get around to it, I will take pictures of mine, currently with 135kms
Regular oil changes every 8k KMS with whatever full synthetic is on sale
I only use top tier gasoline.
I mostly use 91 octane throughout the summer, and 87 octane all winter...(Controversial, I know).

 

[chxei]

I mostly use 91 octane throughout the summer, and 87 octane all winter...(Controversial, I know).

That's something new, never heard someone doing it. But I do like experiments. Do you mind explaining? never heard of. just based on common sense and your observation?

 

[D.J.]

That's something new, never heard someone doing it. But I do like experiments. Do you mind explaining? never heard of. just based on common sense and your observation?

Well, here's my logic + experience.

My manual says... (2018 Canadian AWD 3.3L)


The car calls for 91 or better, for optimal performance.
The consequences for using less than 91 octane are:

• Loss of engine power
• Increased fuel consumption

In the winter months, where power exceeds traction by a large margin, I am really not too concerned with peak power. This car has plenty of power on regular 87, to regularly exceed the available traction, in the winter. My calibrated butt-dyno estimates ~ 30-40 HP reduction using 87 VS 91

With respect to the 2nd consequence, increased fuel consumption I have tracked every tank of fuel since new (260 fuel UPs to date), and my observations were that the difference in fuel economy between 91 vs 87 octane were essentially negligible, but the differences in price between the 2 octanes is not negligible.

My controversial take on this is, it is simply a waste of $$ to use premium fuel when traction is significantly reduced (winter tires and winter weather).

Also, notably, I only use top-tier fuels.
91 octane is not cleaner burning than 87 octane.

I snuck in some YouTube video links everytime I mentioned the word - traction

 

[Kodiack]

Well, here's my logic + experience.

My manual says... (2018 Canadian AWD 3.3L)
View attachment 88872

The car calls for 91 or better, for optimal performance.
The consequences for using less than 91 octane are:

• Loss of engine power
• Increased fuel consumption

In the winter months, where power exceeds traction by a large margin, I am really not too concerned with peak power. This car has plenty of power on regular 87, to regularly exceed the available traction, in the winter. My calibrated butt-dyno estimates ~ 30-40 HP reduction using 87 VS 91

With respect to the 2nd consequence, increased fuel consumption I have tracked every tank of fuel since new (260 fuel UPs to date), and my observations were that the difference in fuel economy between 91 vs 87 octane were essentially negligible, but the differences in price between the 2 octanes is not negligible.

My controversial take on this is, it is simply a waste of $$ to use premium fuel when traction is significantly reduced (winter tires and winter weather).

Also, notably, I only use top-tier fuels.
91 octane is not cleaner burning than 87 octane.

I snuck in some YouTube video links everytime I mentioned the word - traction

I completely agree with your assessment...especially in Canada where additional additives are used in summer and winter gas that differentiate.
And the price difference here is 12 cents a liter or more between 91 and 87 gas......thats an almost 10% increase in cost for a negligible increase.

 

[ht_addict]

Well, here's my logic + experience.

My manual says... (2018 Canadian AWD 3.3L)
View attachment 88872

The car calls for 91 or better, for optimal performance.
The consequences for using less than 91 octane are:

• Loss of engine power
• Increased fuel consumption

In the winter months, where power exceeds traction by a large margin, I am really not too concerned with peak power. This car has plenty of power on regular 87, to regularly exceed the available traction, in the winter. My calibrated butt-dyno estimates ~ 30-40 HP reduction using 87 VS 91

With respect to the 2nd consequence, increased fuel consumption I have tracked every tank of fuel since new (260 fuel UPs to date), and my observations were that the difference in fuel economy between 91 vs 87 octane were essentially negligible, but the differences in price between the 2 octanes is not negligible.

My controversial take on this is, it is simply a waste of $$ to use premium fuel when traction is significantly reduced (winter tires and winter weather).

Also, notably, I only use top-tier fuels.
91 octane is not cleaner burning than 87 octane.

I snuck in some YouTube video links everytime I mentioned the word - traction

What are we talking $5-6 extra using premium over regular to prevent any knocking, proper combustion of the fuel, minimize deposit and have peak performance? I think I'll splurge on that.

 

[ht_addict]

I would recommend following the factory service intervals... which doesn't include any media blast interval.

I think media blast valve cleaning should be done "as needed" only.

Media blasting every 100k miles (160k KMs) is probably not going to hurt anything... just not sure it is required.

Hopefully someone shares with us some pictures with an HD endoscope...

If I get around to it, I will take pictures of mine, currently with 135kms
Regular oil changes every 8k KMS with whatever full synthetic is on sale
I only use top tier gasoline.
I mostly use 91 octane throughout the summer, and 87 octane all winter...(Controversial, I know).

I still need to replace my plugs. Guess Ill have to take of my intake manifold to do it and see inside.

 

[D.J.]

What are we talking $5-6 extra using premium over regular to prevent any knocking, proper combustion of the fuel, minimize deposit and have peak performance? I think I'll splurge on that.

Well,

Right now, the difference between 87 and 91 up the street from me is $0.22, which would be $11.00 extra per 50L tank (Canadian dollars)

Screenshot from gas buddy


I have seen zero evidence that octane is related to carbon deposits. Top tier detergent gasoline is related to carbon deposits, but not octane.

 

[Thomby]

use techron fuel injector cleaner or whatever once a oil change cycle

While this may help your injectors, the reason it won't help intake valve carbon buildup is the same reason gas alone won't do it: it never touches them. In a port injected car, gasoline (which has solvent properties) is constantly misting over the intake valves, which helps wash away the carbon that EGR introduces to the intake track. In a direct injected car, gas is injected inside the cylinder, downstream of the intake manifold & valves.

using premium over regular to prevent any knocking, proper combustion of the fuel, minimize deposit and have peak performance

Higher octane will prevent knocking and allow peak performance if your compression ratio (or effective compression ratio via boost) and timing advance are such that lower octane gas would pre-ignite (or in a modern car like ours, cause the car to limit boost/timing advance).

Higher octane will not improve "proper combustion", or minimize deposits. And its anti-knock benefits are irrelevant when you're at partial throttle and low revs, ie conservative winter driving. I'm betting @D.J. goes all winter without a WOT redline pull, because otherwise he'd end up in a Canadian snowbank.

If I get around to it, I will take pictures of mine, currently with 135kms

How long have you had a catch can? I'd be curious to see what buildup looks like after a substantial number of miles with one, since I haven't seen a before/after comparison.

 

[ht_addict]

Well,

Right now, the difference between 87 and 91 up the street from me is $0.22, which would be $11.00 extra per 50L tank (Canadian dollars)

Screenshot from gas buddy
View attachment 88894

I have seen zero evidence that octane is related to carbon deposits. Top tier detergent gasoline is related to carbon deposits, but not octane.

You are correct. I was calculating at 10-12cent difference. I would still rather spend the extra on premium.. You statement that it's the detergents are the cause of deposits yet the reason for these detergents in Top Tier gas at the concentration the are is to maintain a clean engine. It's the nature of GDI engines why the valves are dirty. Reason manufacturers have started including the extra injector in the intake to spray behind the valves.

 

[D.J.]

You are correct. I was calculating at 10-12cent difference. I would still rather spend the extra on premium.. You statement that it's the detergents are the cause of deposits yet the reason for these detergents in Top Tier gas at the concentration the are is to maintain a clean engine. It's the nature of GDI engines why the valves are dirty. Reason manufacturers have started including the extra injector in the intake to spray behind the valves.

Even our GDI engines benefit from top tier fuels, says so in our owners manual.

Kia recommends that you use good Quality gasolines treated with detergent additives such as TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, which help prevent deposit formation in the engine. These gasolines will help the engine run cleaner and enhance performance of the Emission Control System. For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please go to the website (www.toptiergas.com)

From toptiers website:

Does TOP TIER™ Approved Gasoline help in GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) engines?
Although the technology and mechanical equipment for direct fuel injection differs from port fuel injection or carbureted fuel systems, the short answer is the “keep- clean” effect in these fuel systems may not differ greatly. The data and information that the sponsoring engine manufacturers have is not available in the public domain, but AAA conducted an independent investigation comparing the minimum EPA detergent levels to TOP TIER™ Approved Gasoline. The full report is available for free download here. AAA did a great job showing where in the engine you can benefit from gasoline meeting the TOP TIER™ Performance Standard and even commented on GDI engines (see section 2 of their report on pages 9 and 10; and the sub-section on emissions found in section 5.3 – page 19).

 

[ht_addict]

Even our GDI engines benefit from top tier fuels, says so in our owners manual.

Kia recommends that you use good Quality gasolines treated with detergent additives such as TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, which help prevent deposit formation in the engine. These gasolines will help the engine run cleaner and enhance performance of the Emission Control System. For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please go to the website (www.toptiergas.com)

From toptiers website:

You are correct except for the back of the intake valves since gasoline is not sprayed on them when entering the combustion chamber. This is why I have a catch can.

 

[D.J.]

This is why I have a catch can.

Same here. But I was discussing my use of 87 octane during the low traction winter months.

 

[ht_addict]

Same here. But I was discussing my use of 87 octane during the low traction winter months.

With the cold weather I would be using 91 over 87 to ensure proper combustion while engine heats up.

 

[Thomby]

With the cold weather I would be using 91 or 87 to ensure proper combustion while engine heats up.

Different octane levels do not burn hotter/colder, or more/less completely, or help warmup. They just have a different threshold for knock.

And even if you believe gas companies put different additive packages in regular & premium, midgrade is just a mix of the two at the pump, so they'd have to be compatible and not all that different.

 

[ht_addict]

Different octane levels do not burn hotter/colder, or more/less completely, or help warmup. They just have a different threshold for knock.

And even if you believe gas companies put different additive packages in regular & premium, midgrade is just a mix of the two at the pump, so they'd have to be compatible and not all that different.

And I'm sure putting regular gas into a high compression engine during the dead of winter has it pulling timmings to prevent knock. I'd rather not take the chance.