Car & Driver Stinger GT AWD (Full Test) - Almost a Sport Sedan

[eljay]

Haha--I think the biggest marketing mistake Kia has made with this car is giving us way too much time to rip to shreds every aspect of it before we ever get to drive it--or even sit in an actual production model. I'm just taking comfort from the Aussie thread, since they seem to be besotted by theirs--so far. We'll see . . . I can always fall back on the Regal, but I was hoping to ditch GM after 31 years.

 

[moinmoin]

You seem a little upset. I am sorry if that is the case.

LOL, I am not upset et al, it's more that I see (or read) a fair number of fans seemingly running in circles, trying to decide on something nobody can decide upon until having "experienced" the merchandise.
When I asked "in or out", I knew the answer already. As for myself, I tend towards the Yeah side, but have to drive it first.....

Talk won't conjure anything that is not there. One has to check it out, sets his or her parameters, possibly give them some weight, sort out per importance and then wait.
Deep down, most people know that, and given time, will come to the same conclusion.
I have not said that the reviews are good or bad, I just highlighted certain comments which would give and have given me reason to question the professionalism. We all have seen enough car reviews, that while the may essentially say the same thing, the ratings (points/%/whatever) are sometimes not congruent, and the reader never finds out why. Raters seems to have their own personal ratings and weighting system which we usually are not privy of. So I tend to digest the information gained with a grain of salt, or should I say ounces.

While you suggested I might be upset, I definitely sense frustration in your writings. Enthusiasm is one thing, obsession an other. My enthusiasm shuts down when I run into thing that I can't change, and have to wait for. And the manufacturer of these cars has given me enough reasons to be pissed off. KIA Motors management is the real reason for the bad vibes among the enthusiast, and it is a shame, that they have not found a way to harvest the energy that is undoubtedly created by the Stinger fans. Nothing peronal here either, just the fact, ma'am, just the facts.

 

[moinmoin]

Haha--I think the biggest marketing mistake Kia has made with this car is giving us way too much time to rip to shreds every aspect of it before we ever get to drive it--or even sit in an actual production model. I'm just taking comfort from the Aussie thread, since they seem to be besotted by theirs--so far. We'll see . . . I can always fall back on the Regal, but I was hoping to ditch GM after 31 years.

In complete agreement. Pretty much what I tried to say, maybe did, I forget, it's too late...LOL

 

[moinmoin]

notice that the plates aren't quite the same

Just like my wife, she finds things for me, and I appreciate that of course....besides, it's early in the morning and I am watching Goldrush -> Parker vs. the Hofman's - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
But it does not change the fact, that they are still pre-production cars, and should be reviewed as such. Carefully and responsibly. In contrast, Kia hauled a pile post production cars to the island of Mallorca. Near the end of the German video you can see red, blue, white and grey Stingers in the parking lot. They even had GT Line models there, the 3rd picture in my post above show a white GT Line, not a GT, but it still has the correct lights.

 

[Bamm1]

LOL, I am not upset et al, it's more that I see (or read) a fair number of fans seemingly running in circles, trying to decide on something nobody can decide upon until having "experienced" the merchandise.
When I asked "in or out", I knew the answer already. As for myself, I tend towards the Yeah side, but have to drive it first.....

Again, this an internet car forum. That is pretty much what they are for.

So you didn't pre-order it? The "deposit in Canada" thread gave me that impression. Maybe I was mistaken.

Talk won't conjure anything that is not there. One has to check it out, sets his or her parameters, possibly give them some weight, sort out per importance and then wait.
Deep down, most people know that, and given time, will come to the same conclusion.
I have not said that the reviews are good or bad, I just highlighted certain comments which would give and have given me reason to question the professionalism. We all have seen enough car reviews, that while the may essentially say the same thing, the ratings (points/%/whatever) are sometimes not congruent, and the reader never finds out why. Raters seems to have their own personal ratings and weighting system which we usually are not privy of. So I tend to digest the information gained with a grain of salt, or should I say ounces.

But the same would hold true of every review of the Stinger to date. You can't really stay silent on or agree with the positive ones. But then warn everyone to "grain of salt" the negative ones. Go ahead and "grain of sale" all of it. I would not argue against that.

While you suggested I might be upset, I definitely sense frustration in your writings. Enthusiasm is one thing, obsession an other. My enthusiasm shuts down when I run into thing that I can't change, and have to wait for. And the manufacturer of these cars has given me enough reasons to be pissed off. KIA Motors management is the real reason for the bad vibes among the enthusiast, and it is a shame, that they have not found a way to harvest the energy that is undoubtedly created by the Stinger fans. Nothing peronal here either, just the fact, ma'am, just the facts.

I agree completely that Kia seemingly laid an egg here.

I don't think I would say frustrated. I voiced my concerns about content and price. I am doing so because Kia America may see it and make a change. If they don't, I won't continue to harp on it here trying to get something changed I have no control over. I will simply move on to another option.

 

[Chris]

I think the other thing moinmoin needs to remember is that his car is costing him 10k less than the same car is costing us in America. If the fully loaded car was 10k less here, I think all of us would say it's a no brainier to get one.

 

[Charly]

Is the Stinger the equivalent of the Model X? Is it a little less car for $5,000 less? Is it a little less car for $15,000 less? Will the rate of depreciation be that much greater for the Stinger? Will I run it into the ground and make that point moot? I know that there's some amount of money that would lead me to the Stinger given that the Model X has its flaws, also.

One factor in Kia's favor is reliability. I've been around Jaguars too long to buy one unless I could be convinced that they've completely turned around their reliability. BMW has also been doing poorly on reliability lately. A real problem with the unreliability of some of the luxury brands is the fact that both the labor and the parts come at a premium price. Factoring in repairs and even routine service could influence the TCO dramatically. So will the Stinger be as reliable as other Kias or will it have new model issues?

I'm as frustrated as anyone that I have all these questions that won't be answerable for months or even years. But at least I get to see one this weekend! Even if it is a pre-production model.

 

[Chris]

Is the Stinger the equivalent of the Model X? Is it a little less car for $5,000 less? Is it a little less car for $15,000 less? Will the rate of depreciation be that much greater for the Stinger? Will I run it into the ground and make that point moot? I know that there's some amount of money that would lead me to the Stinger given that the Model X has its flaws, also.

One factor in Kia's favor is reliability. I've been around Jaguars too long to buy one unless I could be convinced that they've completely turned around their reliability. BMW has also been doing poorly on reliability lately. A real problem with the unreliability of some of the luxury brands is the fact that both the labor and the parts come at a premium price. Factoring in repairs and even routine service could influence the TCO dramatically. So will the Stinger be as reliable as other Kias or will it have new model issues?

I'm as frustrated as anyone that I have all these questions that won't be answerable for months or even years. But at least I get to see one this weekend! Even if it is a pre-production model.

Yep we are all in the dark here since it is a brand new car that doesn't have any real world data on it yet.
But as a comparison i just looked at the true cost to own numbers and compared a Jag xf vs a Genesis g80. (All numbers are based on a 5 year time frame)

XF
total deprecation = 28,462
Total maintenance cost = 6,381
G80
Total deprecation = 33,843
Total maintenance cost = 5,792

I know this may have nothing to do with the stinger and the numbers may be way different, but I think you can read in to it a little bit that the Jag is not a huge amount different to repair/maintain, and the deprecation seems to be quite a bit better. Who knows what the stinger will really be though..

 

[Bamm1]

If the fully loaded car was 10k less here, I think all of us would say it's a no brainier to get one.

I could not agree more.

Is the Stinger the equivalent of the Model X? Is it a little less car for $5,000 less? Is it a little less car for $15,000 less? Will the rate of depreciation be that much greater for the Stinger? Will I run it into the ground and make that point moot? I know that there's some amount of money that would lead me to the Stinger given that the Model X has its flaws, also.

One factor in Kia's favor is reliability. I've been around Jaguars too long to buy one unless I could be convinced that they've completely turned around their reliability. BMW has also been doing poorly on reliability lately. A real problem with the unreliability of some of the luxury brands is the fact that both the labor and the parts come at a premium price. Factoring in repairs and even routine service could influence the TCO dramatically. So will the Stinger be as reliable as other Kias or will it have new model issues?

I'm as frustrated as anyone that I have all these questions that won't be answerable for months or even years. But at least I get to see one this weekend! Even if it is a pre-production model.

Based on the very first press release, I thought wow, the Stinger is going to have options not available on the sport sedans from Germany (ventilated seats, not a 3 series; wireless charging and heated rear seats, not on a C class; etc.) along with "similar" performance (if the paper specs match the real world). I didn't compare it to the 5 series or E class because I assumed the likely cost difference was going to be too significant. Then I heard the "loaded" (AWD, etc.) Stinger was going to come in under where the German's start for their AWD + turbo six models (340i, C43, etc.), which affirmed my pricing thoughts. Reliability, warranty, more room, a hatch, etc. were all icing on the proverbial cake. I was all set to throw [not better on a track, not faster in a straight line, worse fuel economy, etc.] into the "no big deal" category because the above was so compelling. Then the price point seems like it might not to be true. Then the content might not be true either. Then I hear the price in Canada. Now here I sit at a place where I thought my biggest misgiving was going to be that I can't get the exterior/interior color combination I like best.

 

[Kia Stinger]

Either one of two things are going to happen.

1. Most people are fine with the price and Kia sells a lot of Stingers
2. Most people don't like the price and Kia discounts, and sells a lot of Stingers.

If you want a fully loaded, fully optioned Stinger for a great price - you're probably not going to be buying one in 2018. It's going to be too expensive and all the people who don't mind throwing money around on something new are going to suck up that inventory. After all those buyers already have a top of the line Stinger and Kia wants to sell more - the discounts will come into play and everybody else will buy one.

 

[Chris]

Either one of two things are going to happen.

1. Most people are fine with the price and Kia sells a lot of Stingers
2. Most people don't like the price and Kia discounts, and sells a lot of Stingers.

If you want a fully loaded, fully optioned Stinger for a great price - you're probably not going to be buying one in 2018. It's going to be too expensive and all the people who don't mind throwing money around on something new are going to suck up that inventory. After all those buyers already have a top of the line Stinger and Kia wants to sell more - the discounts will come into play and everybody else will buy one.

Or it will be like the k900 a ton of people won't buy them, Kia will discount it (killing value on anyone that did) and they still won't sell that many of them.
Even with 11000 lease cash (current offer on the k900 no one is buying them)

 

[Kia Stinger]

Or it will be like the k900 a ton of people won't buy them, Kia will discount it (killing value on anyone that did) and they still won't sell that many of them.
Even with 11000 lease cash (current offer on the k900 no one is buying them)

I think the main problem with the K900 is that full-size premium luxury sedans aren't selling all that well - even for Mercedes and BMW. It's the hardest sell right now. Sedans are taking a huge sales hit due to CUVs and full-sizers are suffering even more. Now you have one with a Kia badge, a funny name and a pretty big price tag (for a Kia). So it's a really hard sell...

 

[regnitStinger]

Either one of two things are going to happen.

1. Most people are fine with the price and Kia sells a lot of Stingers
2. Most people don't like the price and Kia discounts, and sells a lot of Stingers.

If you want a fully loaded, fully optioned Stinger for a great price - you're probably not going to be buying one in 2018. It's going to be too expensive and all the people who don't mind throwing money around on something new are going to suck up that inventory. After all those buyers already have a top of the line Stinger and Kia wants to sell more - the discounts will come into play and everybody else will buy one.

Nice logic there! My dilemmas are either not waiting and paying the full retail in December/January and getting the most out of my trade in (fully paid off) or waiting for the unknown amount of time and unknown amount of discount and getting less out of my trade in. Decision decision decision! The GM at my local dealership told me Kia is changing their strategy/brand perception with this car. He said Kia made a mistake with introducing K900 (wrong car at the wrong time or right care at the wrong time). With Stinger, they are rolling out GT, GT1 and GT2 first. They are not selling 2.0 T until after some (unknown) times. A typical sales bluff? I need to go to talk to more GMs at other dealerships. You guys are welcome to ask about Stinger strategy and share it with us.

 

[Kia Stinger]

Nice logic there! My dilemmas are either not waiting and paying the full retail in December/January and getting the most out of my trade in (fully paid off) or waiting for the unknown amount of time and unknown amount of discount and getting less out of my trade in. Decision decision decision! The GM at my local dealership told me Kia is changing their strategy/brand perception with this car. He said Kia made a mistake with introducing K900 (wrong car at the wrong time or right care at the wrong time). With Stinger, they are rolling out GT, GT1 and GT2 first. They are not selling 2.0 T until after some (unknown) times. A typical sales bluff? I need to go to talk to more GMs at other dealerships. You guys are welcome to ask about Stinger strategy and share it with us.

Very interesting about the 2.0 not being available at first. Hmm.. I wonder... I think the K900 was the right car at the wrong time. Big sedans aren't selling anymore now that the CUV craze is in full force. I think it would be fine to buy the Stinger early-on as long as you don't mind being one of the early adopters who typically pay more to be one of the first to have "the new, shiny object"!

 

[Bamm1]

Either one of two things are going to happen.

1. Most people are fine with the price and Kia sells a lot of Stingers
2. Most people don't like the price and Kia discounts, and sells a lot of Stingers.

If you want a fully loaded, fully optioned Stinger for a great price - you're probably not going to be buying one in 2018. It's going to be too expensive and all the people who don't mind throwing money around on something new are going to suck up that inventory. After all those buyers already have a top of the line Stinger and Kia wants to sell more - the discounts will come into play and everybody else will buy one.

I think the GT trim might sell to the folks who want a performance sedan and need to carry passengers routinely or want to use it as family hauler. It has the lowest price of entry for that combination. Even the C&D reviewer seemed to think that was the model to go for with its performance/cost equation. Its the GT2+AWD models that will likely collect dust. The problem is, I am not even sure many dealers will order Stingers in that configuration. The dealer can "place an order" if they find someone willing to cough up the dough. But I don't think they would carry a bunch of them on the lot just sitting there contributing to overhead. Maybe you can put one in the show room as a halo car that you can use to sell lower trim models when they balk at the price. But if there is a limited number of GT2+AWD models out there, I am not sure we will see massive discounts all over the place. For me personally, it was the GT2+AWD at a good price or bust. There are better de-contented options out there without a Kia badge. So I won't be moving to a GT or GT1 model, I will be moving on.

 

[hej]

I think the key part of that article is the fully loaded version isn't worth the cost when other better cars can be had in that price neighborhood. Bummer...

No examples mentioned, certainly none of them are hatchbacks.

 

[hereward]

I think the GT trim might sell to the folks who want a performance sedan and need to carry passengers routinely or want to use it as family hauler. It has the lowest price of entry for that combination. Even the C&D reviewer seemed to think that was the model to go for with its performance/cost equation. Its the GT2+AWD models that will likely collect dust. The problem is, I am not even sure many dealers will order Stingers in that configuration. The dealer can "place an order" if they find someone willing to cough up the dough. But I don't think they would carry a bunch of them on the lot just sitting there contributing to overhead. Maybe you can put one in the show room as a halo car that you can use to sell lower trim models when they balk at the price. But if there is a limited number of GT2+AWD models out there, I am not sure we will see massive discounts all over the place. For me personally, it was the GT2+AWD at a good price or bust. There are better de-contented options out there without a Kia badge. So I won't be moving to a GT or GT1 model, I will be moving on.

Sorry, BAMM, could you clarify the last sentence? You won't be moving to a GT or GT1 and move on? Or IF you don't move to a GT or GT1, you'll move on? Thanks.

 

[FluffyBottoms]

I think the GT trim might sell to the folks who want a performance sedan and need to carry passengers routinely or want to use it as family hauler. It has the lowest price of entry for that combination. Even the C&D reviewer seemed to think that was the model to go for with its performance/cost equation. Its the GT2+AWD models that will likely collect dust. The problem is, I am not even sure many dealers will order Stingers in that configuration. The dealer can "place an order" if they find someone willing to cough up the dough. But I don't think they would carry a bunch of them on the lot just sitting there contributing to overhead. Maybe you can put one in the show room as a halo car that you can use to sell lower trim models when they balk at the price. But if there is a limited number of GT2+AWD models out there, I am not sure we will see massive discounts all over the place. For me personally, it was the GT2+AWD at a good price or bust. There are better de-contented options out there without a Kia badge. So I won't be moving to a GT or GT1 model, I will be moving on.

I'm not sure dealers will have much of a choice in selecting their inventory, at least at the outset.

Kia has been mostly focused on marketing their GT specced Stingers internationally (e.g. Australia and Canada), and of those, primarily the versions with most of the options. I see them doing the same here in the US.

Additionally, the car is going to market at the beginning of winter, so at least in areas like the northeast, the majority of Stingers will likely have AWD. I'd expect GT1 + GT2's to represent the bulk of the inventory in the first few months after launch.

 

[moinmoin]

moinmoin needs to remember is that his car is costing him 10k less

That statement would be correct, if you could/would be allowed to buy new cars in Canada and Canadians could/would be allowed to buy new cars in the US. We all know, that is not the case and will not be happening. On the other hand, you are not comparing your imaginary prices with Korea, Australia, Austria, Germany, and where applicable, considering yourself so lucky that US prices are so low in comparison (if they were). So, all this moaning about the "$10,000 price difference" and how Canadians are supposedly getting the big breaks is irrelevant and not objective. Because nobody can take advantake of the "price breaks".

There are already enough examples in US/Can car pricing, where the prices on both sides of the border for the same model are dollar-wise virtually identical. Why would it be suddenly so surprising for this car? You are all keenly aware that the CDN$ is about US$0.80, meaning, that Canadians pay currently 25% (1.00 ./. 0.80 = 1.25) more for everything that's priced in US$. Fair? I don't think so. But that's the way the cookie crumbles, nobody can do anything about it and we live with it. Different markets, different rules.

I should remind you that the Canadian pricing for the Stinger came in two stages: "less than $47,000./52,000." was publlished on KMC's Canadian website, and a short while later changed without fanfare to "less than $45,000/50,000.". Prices pertaining to the two GT models available in Canada. Eventually a countdown timer appeared giving the days/hours/minutes left available for pre-ordering.

I had already pre-ordered at the $52K level and my pro-forma invoice was subsequently reduced by $2K. Yes, I was asked for a $3K deposit and then for and additional $2K, for a total of $5K.
(Yes, a was an early adapter ) Let's say, negotiations took place and arrangements were made, satisfactory to both sides. My colors, Thunder Grey and Red Interior remained.

Why am I mentioning this? Because pricing has been bandied around south of the border, but nothing has been fixed or published by KMA, nor has the Order Book been opened. So you are in limbo. But is it possible that KMA is using their experience in the Canadian market to gauge their response to the much bigger US market? After all, if they can sell close to 200 cars by the end of December, that would be some accomplishment. And they certainly would want a repeat.
My prediction is, for what it's worth, that the GT2 will be priced below the US$50K mark. Otherwise, the price would be too close to the K900.

For those, who are understandably sitting on the fence, let us know what car models of other makes compete directly in price (OK, assume 52K) and options with the GT2. Include AWD, V6 Biturbo, Suroof, Nappa leather, hatch etc.. Nothing should be left out. Maybe you will change all our minds, who knows?

 

[Charly]

For those, who are understandably sitting on the fence, let us know what car models of other makes compete directly in price (OK, assume 52K) and options with the GT2. Include AWD, V6 Biturbo, Suroof, Nappa leather, hatch etc.. Nothing should be left out. Maybe you will change all our minds, who knows?

Some of us will be buying Stingers. It's just that if those of us who live south of the border were paying $10K less, we'd ALL be buying Stingers. As it is, we'll be considering not just the features you mention but also resale value, bragging rights, reliability, cost of maintenance and repairs, dealer experience, and other factors that mean something to us as individuals.

That said, glad yours is coming and we're all waiting for pics.