Rear Wheels have positive camber

[Licorice]

Both rear wheels have a visually obvious positive camber. I've had 3 wheel alignments since purchasing the car new (March 2021), the most recent being when my local Kia dealer told me I needed to replace my rear tires due to uneven wear (approx March 2024 @ 40k). I know nothing about this subject, so have a few questions:

- I swap my winter (OEM) wheels + winter tires for my aftermarket wheels + OEM tires every spring and fall. Shouldn't someone at the tire place have noticed that the rears were out of whack?
- could this issue in any way have something to do with the aftermarket sway bars (front & rear) that were installed?

Thanks in advance for any advice/feedback!

 

[Snicklefritz]

Sways have zero influence on camber or alignment. All they do is act like a second spring to stiffen roll when cornering. The front sway will influence steering feel/feedback.

By "positive camber", I am assuming that you mean the top of the tire visually leans further out than the bottom of the tire? I've never read of this before. Somebody has adjusted it deliberately that way. Because some negative camber is factory spec. I don't know how much negative camber, I just know that when I had an alignment done by a private shop, he said that he could take out some of the negative camber to address inner edge wear, but he didn't want to take out too much because that would negatively affect handling. So, with positive camber, I am wondering how "squirrely" your Stinger handles!

 

[Thomby]

Do you have a picture from the rear of the car? And/or a recent alignment sheet? Was the issue present during any of the prior alignments (ie fixed and came back, or never fixed)?

I would not necessarily expect a large tire chain to notice/comment on it, if their focus is low cost and turnover. And I don't see how a sway bar would change your camber.

 

[Licorice]

I have photos but couldn't upload them due to the AdBlocking restriction (I think I've figured that out now).

Sorry, it is NEGATIVE camber ... I swear I googled it and the photo that corresponded with my situation said "positive" ... but the bottom of the tire leans further out ... so maybe it is indeed meant to be that way? However, the Kia dealer didn't say anything about that ... they just said I needed [another] alignment and new tires. OK, so likely nothing to be too concerned about. Thank you

 

[Snicklefritz]

That does look extreme. You should be able to see sidewall all the way bottom to top. Your going to get inner edge wear for sure. The worst case of his pictured on here was a couple of years ago. The inner half of the rear tire was totally shot, with belts showing on the inner edge, while the outer edge still had almost full tread depth. Cone-shaped! Some camber definitely needs to be dialed back.

 

[Licorice]

Hmmm … I’m going on a 3,000 km r/t road trip in a week, so maybe I should get it in for an alignment. I’ll fetch my last alignment report from March/24 and post it (I think it had before and after) … I don’t drive it hard or much (approx. 15,000 km/year), is it reasonable for it to get this far out of whack in less than a year?!

 

[Licorice]

1st alignment was done at Kia dealer April 2022 @ 12,677 km (report attached).
2nd alignment was done at Kia dealer Sept 2023 @ 32,618 km (no report given)
3rd alignment was done at Kal Tire April 2024 @ 37,701 km (report attached).

Is this normal? I’ve never had a wheel alignment done on my previous cars (have never been told I needed one, and my last 2 cars were bought new and all servicing done at the Hyundai/Kia dealerships).

 

[Thomby]

Is this normal?

No, but your last alignment didn't fix anything -- note that before & after values are the same, and outside the -0.7 to -1.7 degree spec. You're not lowered are you?

You're not way outside spec, but you are bit out from the middle of the range I'd expect them to shoot for (-1.1 to -1.2). And I'd definitely expect them to mention if they couldn't bring you into spec, either due to lowering springs, damage/wear, or lack of adjustability (I thought we had adjustable camber in back but could be wrong).

 

[Snicklefritz]

(I thought we had adjustable camber in back but could be wrong).

We do. I had some taken out.

 

[Licorice]

No, my car isn’t lowered. I do vaguely recall them saying they didn’t/couldn’t adjust the rear camber (likely why there’s the little scribble beside the readings) but I didn’t clue in at the time that they charged me for an alignment that didn’t really change anything. The car was at Kal Tire because they got my rear OEM tires replaced by Michelin under a pro-rated warranty, so I guess what I gained from that I lost in the pointless alignment charge. Oh well, water under the bridge now. I’ll take it in for an alignment on Monday and now that I’m better informed (thanks!), I’ll know what to look for and ask about.

 

[Volfy]

Looks like the tech did dial in the front toe angles to be right on the money. No doubt because that has more significant effect (straight-line tracking, steering feel, tire wear, etc.). He probably skipped rear camber because it was less than 0.1deg outside the acceptable range. Just normal variation stacked on top of measurement margin of error could easily be more than 0.1deg. He could roll the car off the machine and roll it back on, and it would probably read differently by that much.

The second possibility is that the rear camber eccentric bolt is maxed out, so the tech couldn't adjust it any more. This happens quite often with lowered cars. My red Stinger (on Eibach springs) is sitting at the high limit of the acceptable range of rear (-) camber. The tech was kind enough to note on the alignment sheet that the adjustment is maxed out. I did verify by looking under the car and, sure enough, both camber bolts are cranked all the way to one end.

If your car is not lowered, this is less likely the case, but not out of the realm of possibility. Take a quick peek under your girl's skirt and verify.

Either way, you're probably okay for normal street driving. I doubt you'll notice much of a different if he'd brought the rear camber back to the center of the acceptably range. If you take it to the track, yeah... that's where it would matter.

 

[BIG-D]

I always adjust my alignment depending on how my tyres wear..
I have had to do it myself at home when a performance shop got my camber and toe adjustments confused.

Easy enough to do I suppose but just take 5 sec to think first it isn't hard.

How hard can it be when you ask for 1mm total toe out in the rear and stand the tyre up please ?

Did it at home by eye with 2 blocks of wood and a tape measure and took it back and I was out by .7mm lol no tyre wear at all now and car tracks straight even tho I'm lowered...

And if you do lower your car be prepared to fit castor bushes up front because there is no way around it to stop it from pulling in whatever direction the factory decided for what side of the rd you drive on.

Peace

 

[Thomby]

He probably skipped rear camber because it was less than 0.1deg outside the acceptable range.

Maybe, but for a street car I think I'd rather be at -1.0 than -1.8. @Licorice you could mention this when you go in for another alignment...tell them you've noticed uneven wear and that it was at the edge of the range for camber, and see if they can bring it a bit closer to the min than the max.

(I thought most places shot for the center of spec unless they ran out of adjustment, but maybe some just take a stab and if it lands just inside spec, call it done.)

 

[Licorice]

I will do that ... thanks, everyone, for the education and input!

 

[Volfy]

Maybe, but for a street car I think I'd rather be at -1.0 than -1.8. @Licorice you could mention this when you go in for another alignment...tell them you've noticed uneven wear and that it was at the edge of the range for camber, and see if they can bring it a bit closer to the min than the max.

(I thought most places shot for the center of spec unless they ran out of adjustment, but maybe some just take a stab and if it lands just inside spec, call it done.)

Vast majority of street cars - even performance-oriented ones - typically have street alignment with the rear camber noticeably greater than the front. Pay attention to every other car on the road. You'll noticed this is true for almost every single car. They do this to give the car a general understeering tendency, which is inherently safer for 95% of the drivers on the road. When the average driver goes into a corner too hot, the car's front end just pushes. The typical driver's instinctive reaction is to let off the throttle, dabble the brakes, and dial in more steering wheel angle into the corner... scrubbing off speed in the process. Nice and safe.

The second alignment sheet posted above has roughly 1.0 deg more (-)camber at the rear wheels. That 1 deg differential is perfectly reasonable and probably preferrable for most drivers. Because the front camber is not adjustment, I wouldn't recommend reducing the rear camber... unless the driver understands exactly what that does to the car's cornering attitude and is prepared for the change in handling characteristic... especially in an emergency situation.

We run our cars not pure street alignment, but not pure track alignment either... but somewhat a compromise between the two. Neutral enough for the track, but still relatively safe enough for everyday driving out in the jungle. To be safe, you need practice at the track to know what to expect... all the way up to the limits. Otherwise, it could potentially be bad juju.

 

[BIG-D]

I followed a RAV4 down the road that had excessive camber and i couldn't just ignore it , i gestured to pull over and we had a little chat.

Indeed he had a wheel alignment done just last week, except the muppets adjusted the wrong allignment bolts.

He followed me home and i did a guestimation approximation for him and told him to go to another shop and check the toe for the sake of tyre wear.

I think i made a new friend, because not only did the other shop adjust it for free after hearing his story i also have been given a store credit to swap tyres on my wheels whenever i need to for free...

 

[Thomby]

I followed a RAV4 down the road that had excessive camber and i couldn't just ignore it , i gestured to pull over and we had a little chat.
Indeed he had a wheel alignment done just last week, except the muppets adjusted the wrong allignment bolts.

I wonder how common this is. I've seen cars on the road that were visibly misaligned, and just chalked it up to accidents or neglect, assuming any decent alignment shop would have experience with enough suspension types for it to be routine on all but the most exotic setups. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit...

 

[Licorice]

Here’s the report from the alignment done on Monday. I mentioned the rear camber and my concern about uneven wear to the tech. When it was done, I was told via the receptionist that this was the best he could do (no explanation why). I guess everything is within spec, so nothing to be concerned about … ?

 

[Volfy]

Here’s the report from the alignment done on Monday. I mentioned the rear camber and my concern about uneven wear to the tech. When it was done, I was told via the receptionist that this was the best he could do (no explanation why).

Sounds like he might have maxed out the OEM eccentric bolt adjustment for rear camber. Take a look under your car (front the rear bumper)... camber is the lower bolt, toe is the top. Pay attention to the hash marks and see where the indicator line points to. If the indicator line swings all the way to one side (I think in this case, outside), then there is likely no more adjustment range left to pull the camber angle any less (-) than what's on that alignment sheet. I took the below pic when that car was still all stock, so the pointers were basically all pointing at the center hash marks. The factory witness marks (in yellow) still all lined up too.

I guess everything is within spec, so nothing to be concerned about … ?

Your front-rear camber differential is fine. As for "abnormal" wear, well... I know folks love to blame alignment, but I find that sort of blanket claim rather dubious. We run our (-) camber greater than yours - especially the front - and the all-season tires we run for street-use wear very very evenly. Absolutely no sign of any "abnormal" wear. Hyper-performance Summer tires like the stock Michelins are just fast wearing... period, so any wear differences are amplified. Realistically, for what most drivers do on the daily, those expensive racy hoops are a plain waste of money and mostly an ego boost. But... everybody's value equation is different. Also, driving habits have an out-sized influence on tire wear.

 

[Licorice]

I had to replace my rear OEM Michelins last April, with only approx 25,000 km on them, and they were so unevenly worn that Michelin actually came to the table and pro-rated the cost by 70% (I paid $107 each instead of $355 each). I’m not a particularly aggressive driver (I have yet to try my launch control) and don’t put a lot of mileage on per year. The uneven wear is what drew my attention to this whole rear camber factor, as I’ve never been told on previous vehicles (new 2012 Kia and new 2016 Hyundai, both 100% dealer serviced) that an alignment was needed, and yet there was the Kia dealer last April telling me I needed another one and my rear tires were done.

I’m not very mechanically-inclined (surprise, surprise) but I will try and look where you’re suggesting and report back. Thanks for taking the time to explain & educate