Stinger and WMI.

[Yaro]

Guys, did anyone had any success with methanol injection ?

I build 2 stingers 3.3 with different wmi systems and...from my point of view no success.

1-st car 3.3 l car with k&n typhoon, big intercooler, no catalysts, tuned exhaust. it has Jb4 + jb4 wmi. It was flashed, on top of it added jb4. Without wmi it did 474hp and 720nm torque. With wmi it did 505hp and 716nm.

2-nd car similar specs. Lap3pro V2b+ aquamist wmi and without meth it did 490 hp and 700++ nm torque. With Wmi not much bigger numbers.

So...what I am surprised, increasing timing doesn't give any effect on those cars. On an Evo by using race fuel / wmi I could gain up to 20% more Hp then with 100 octane fuel.

That's lap3pro


That's jb4 + wmi (474 without wmi)


What's your experience with wmi / race fuel.

 

[robz32]

Paging @Terry@BMS

 

[FokalPoint]

From my understanding the WMI won't increase power a whole lot more on the same tune/map but will instead increase safety and reliability.

 

[Yaro]

From my understanding the WMI won't increase power a whole lot more on the same tune/map but will instead increase safety and reliability.

I am not talking about the same map. I am taking that on Stinger with gdi engine when you change timing it doesn't do very much, like on normal cars.

 

[ecko04]

I guess I have more questions than answers. I’m going to keep this squarely centered on the topic, which was WMI as opposed to the sweeping statement about GDI engines. I am most familiar with the JB4 so all of these questions may not be applicable to Lap3.

1) Where are the logs for these dyno runs? Without logs everything is speculative.
2) What map was being used?
3) What methanol mix was being used?
4) What was the boost additive set to in the JB4 settings?
5) What fuel was being used?

In regards to timing, the JB4 does not control timing at all, but it does monitor timing and adjust itself as a function of timing.

Also for the JB4 when WMI is introduced it does raise boost as a function of meth flow & historic timing, which is the default setting, until the equivalent boost additive —as set in the JB4 settings — is reached.

 

[Yaro]

I guess I have more questions than answers. I’m going to keep this squarely centered on the topic, which was WMI as opposed to the sweeping statement about GDI engines. I am most familiar with the JB4 so all of these questions may not be applicable to Lap3.

1) Where are the logs for these dyno runs? Without logs everything is speculative.
2) What map was being used?
3) What methanol mix was being used?
4) What was the boost additive set to in the JB4 settings?
5) What fuel was being used?

In regards to timing, the JB4 does not control timing at all, but it does monitor timing and adjust itself as a function of timing.

Also for the JB4 when WMI is introduced it does raise boost as a function of meth flow & historic timing, which is the default setting, until the equivalent boost additive —as set in the JB4 settings — is reached.

M8, Terry has all my logs. And we didn't come to the conclusion why the car gained only 6.5% over 100 octane map.

I am having similar results with Lap3.

As I understood jb4 controls timing by fooling iat sensor.

So I am trying to understand, what other people gained.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

M8, Terry has all my logs. And we didn't come to the conclusion why the car gained only 6.5% over 100 octane map.

I am having similar results with Lap3.

As I understood jb4 controls timing by fooling iat sensor.

So I am trying to understand, what other people gained.

My understanding is most people gain about 20-30whp with WMI.

But ecko is right and the answers to his questions 2-5 will make a big difference on power gains.

Were you using map8 on the JB4?
Were you using 50/50 WMI mix or 80/20?
What was the “boost additive” set to? 75-80?
Were you running 93 or 100 octane fuel?

And our Stingers have real time ignition timing adjustments so the ECU will automatically adapt up or down based on available octane, current psi, etc.

That’s also why manually adjusting the ignition timing by spoofing TDC won’t work like the lap3V2 tries to do. The ECU adapts and just cancels out those adjustments so they don’t make any more gains.

 

[ecko04]

M8, Terry has all my logs. And we didn't come to the conclusion why the car gained only 6.5% over 100 octane map.

I am having similar results with Lap3.

As I understood jb4 controls timing by fooling iat sensor.

So I am trying to understand, what other people gained.

What is the 100 octane map?
Did you pin the JB4 for the IAT wire and run it? If not, the typical installation does not influence timing.

Also, what was the mix of meth? Terry dyno’d a 75% meth to water mix and got about 460hp/530tq out of it on pump gas.

But if you’re making 500+hp and ~530tq on WMI and 100 octane then you’re getting an appreciable bump in power. 6.5% is no small feat.

If you adjust your meth/water mix to 75/25 or 80/20 and adjust the boost additive then you’d make more power over a 49/51 mix like Boost Juice. Stock turbos will likely max out around a boost additive of 80.

 

[cncBilly]

Guys, did anyone had any success with methanol injection ?

I build 2 stingers 3.3 with different wmi systems and...from my point of view no success.

1-st car 3.3 l car with k&n typhoon, big intercooler, no catalysts, tuned exhaust. it has Jb4 + jb4 wmi. It was flashed, on top of it added jb4. Without wmi it did 474hp and 720nm torque. With wmi it did 505hp and 716nm.

2-nd car similar specs. Lap3pro V2b+ aquamist wmi and without meth it did 490 hp and 700++ nm torque. With Wmi not much bigger numbers.

So...what I am surprised, increasing timing doesn't give any effect on those cars. On an Evo by using race fuel / wmi I could gain up to 20% more Hp then with 100 octane fuel.

That's lap3pro

View attachment 32820
That's jb4 + wmi (474 without wmi)

View attachment 32822
What's your experience with wmi / race fuel.

Have a look at the offical 1/4 mile thread. Four out of the five fastest Stingers us a wmi system. I guess you could call that success

 

[Tonkabob]

M8, Terry has all my logs. And we didn't come to the conclusion why the car gained only 6.5% over 100 octane map.

I am having similar results with Lap3.

As I understood jb4 controls timing by fooling iat sensor.

So I am trying to understand, what other people gained.

Didyou change timing in the ecu tune when you added wmi?
Jb4 iat is a static setting and you need to install the extra wire. I've played with iat and haven't seen it impact timing. I think it only helps the iat is hot like 140 + and you spoof it down which i haven't done.
I've only spoofed up in cold temps resulting in overboost.
So spoofing down when hot keeps timing up / normal and spoofing up when cold increases boost.

 

[Yaro]

With Jb4 we connected iat. As I said, car without wmi showed 47x hp power and 720 nm (that's flywheel).

We use here 100 octane fuel sold at petrol stations.

With wmi 50/50 mix power stayed 47x and torque dropped to 706nm. Then we tried 100% meth. Result was 505 hp and 716 nm. We ended up using map8.

The part which worried me, that without using 100% meth we had no increase in power.

With Lap3pro v2 I used 50/50 mix and aquamist system. Results were similar to JB4. It can add timing, but no significant gains.

P.s. I was tuning evo's for many years and using wmi on evo's give sick advantages over running 100 octane fuel. With stingers, if we are talking about 20-30 whp...then it is strange to me.

About evos, meth can give us extra 6" of timing. Depending on turbo that could be huge gains.

 

[Terry@BMS]

If you already have enough octane and already have enough fuel volume, the only benefit of WMI is going to be with intake temperature reduction. And that is only going to crop up during very long runs, back to back runs, etc. Not anything you'd see on a short dyno run.

Look at your JB4 log with and without WMI to compare timing advance for both. If timing is good on the no-WMI log at similar boost levels then you have your answer. You did pickup 20hp it sounds like though which I'd consider significant.

Also, just checking peak numbers on dyno charts can give you misleading results. You need to compare the overall curves. It is possible you're making a larger gain under the curve than peak power numbers indicate.

 

[Yaro]

If you already have enough octane and already have enough fuel volume, the only benefit of WMI is going to be with intake temperature reduction. And that is only going to crop up during very long runs, back to back runs, etc. Not anything you'd see on a short dyno run.

Look at your JB4 log with and without WMI to compare timing advance for both. If timing is good on the no-WMI log at similar boost levels then you have your answer. You did pickup 20hp it sounds like though which I'd consider significant.

Also, just checking peak numbers on dyno charts can give you misleading results. You need to compare the overall curves. It is possible you're making a larger gain under the curve than peak power numbers indicate.

I came to the same conclusion. Because of gdi engine and small turbos there are no huge benefits like with older type engines.

To really benefit from wmi I guess we need big turbos or hybrids.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I came to the same conclusion. Because of gdi engine and small turbos there are no huge benefits like with older type engines.

To really benefit from wmi I guess we need big turbos or hybrids.

A better testing condition than dyno is doing 1/2 mile races on a warm day. We've done that testing and found the WMI to be very helpful.

 

[cncBilly]

A better testing condition than dyno is doing 1/2 mile races on a warm day. We've done that testing and found the WMI to be very helpful.

Whats the trap on a half mile?

 

[Terry@BMS]

Whats the trap on a half mile?

We hit around 146-148mph usually.

No Fly Zone 11/10/18 Results, Photos, & Videos - N54Tech.com - International Turbo Racing Discussion

 

[Yaro]

A better testing condition than dyno is doing 1/2 mile races on a warm day. We've done that testing and found the WMI to be very helpful.

Agree with you. But it's a difficult to explain to a client, that for spending XXX $ you may get nothing on the Dyno.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

As I said, car without wmi showed 47x hp power and 720 nm (that's flywheel)

How are you getting flywheel power results? Do you have an engine dyno, or just trying to convert whp/wtq to flywheel power?

Agree with you. But it's a difficult to explain to a client, that for spending XXX $ you may get nothing on the Dyno.

20-30whp gains from WMI for only about $500 is better than almost any other mod available for our Stingers.

Some people spend $1k+++ for catback exhausts that only gain 10-15whp and $600+ for secondary DPs that only add ~5whp. With the exception of a chip/ecu tune that adds 60-80whp, only intakes(20-25whp) make almost as much power as WMI. So WMI is inexpensive and is the second best gains you can get on our Stingers before upgrading the turbos.

 

[Psykostevo]

With many of the other fully tunable platforms you can add timing in the tune to take better advantage of WMI. On the FA20DIT and the LNF we often add about 15-16 extra degrees of advance over normal pump gas because we can usually get away with it as a result of the increased octane and reduced air temps.

With the Stinger, not being able to add more advance in the tune, and already being able to run maximum airflow efficiency on high octane without WMI, all we can really benefit from is whatever added advance Kia has set based on the lower IAT. I bet it’s not much.

If we were able to increase timing advance through other means I bet we would see greater results, but that’s assuming that we aren’t already pretty close to MBT as it is.

 

[Tonkabob]

I've seen a few get no gains or lose power with 50/50 wmi. Would like to see more ecu tunes piggy combos with wmi. I think lap3 has a few but gains and times still not standout.