Drag/Acceleration Weight of the worlds fastest Stinger....

[STINGER]

Holy baby Jesus !!!!!!! $799 for battery??

Wow I guess I will keep the extra 20 pounds lol.

I had a tough time convincing myself as well, but think about it this way. Lithium batteries (In particular LifePO4) will last 7 years easily (this is based on what I read on other forums) So the way I see it, this battery is coming with me even after I sell the Stinger, which is why I went with the smallest battery case so that I am sure it will fit on my next car.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I have a 6# $600 Braille battery in one of our race cars and it's awesome. But given how heavy the Stinger is to start I don't think 40# of weight savings is enough to justify the cost and headaches that come with a battery like that. That is unless you're trying to break some record or something.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

I think its safe to say, I have possibly had more Stingers on the dyno than anyone in this group and I have seen stock cars run as high as 16 psi and as low as 12 psi, not logged but actual boost pressure recorded on the dyno sensor.

You don't have any facts, that is the problem... so, everyone is saying that more boost is bad. Do you know why? Because the ECU is mapping the turbine speed and at 20 psi the turbine speed map gets into a different area of limiters. I have been playing with turbo speeds and have started to realize that there is a lot of power still left on the table with the stock turbos. When I have all the turbo speed threasholds mapped, we are going to see the next step in Stinger performance, a step that should honestly stun everyone.

I have logged and shared a little info on this, but have stayed away from the forums and most of the FB media bullshit because I have no time for this anymore. I am in here talking about this, because I have successfully ran 23 lbs of boost, on pump gas with moderate ignition timing, and it was wheel spin city in 3rd gear... yes, 3rd gear wheel spin on the freeway during kickdown and sustained wheel spin all the way through 3rd gear. I posted a few logs of the 22 and 23 lbs of boost held at 6200 RPM (screen shots) to show people that the turbos are not out of air flow, we just need more time to test and verify what we are doing with the car. Had the car not been hit by a drunk driver, we would possibly have a very low 11 second pass to credit right now.

Just to give you an idea of where the car was heading for performance. my 60 to 130 times were sub 8 seconds. I think I still have a 124 MPH trap speed at 13.7 seconds due to wheel spin in my Dragy, but... its unverified due to a 2% grade, lol. I was getting very close to unlocking some of the Stage 2 Tune options we are working just before the car got hit.

So... to say things like at 20 psi and the turbos are done and that running more is hurting TonkaBob's results... is not fact filled, it simply you guessing because your knowledge base on tuning is minimal at best. Until someone really leans on these turbos and pushes them to the fail point, then we will know when we have hit the limits and those limits, will never be achieved with a piggy back.

First, thank you for the respectful response and information to help us all learn.

Second, if you’ve seen stock Stingers run 16psi please share photos/screenshots so everyone can see it as a fact instead of hearsay. And is it safe to assume that’s an AWD Stinger since they run ~2psi more than the more common RWD Stingers?

Third, all my info is based on facts, but I’m only talking about the current platform and it’s parameters, not what you as a tuner have in development. You’re explanation actually proves my point, and at 20psi we all currently hit a wall of turbine speed limiters. I don’t deny that our stock turbos can run 23psi+ with minimal ignition timing and have seen your posts/videos stating this. However that won’t be until you or other tuners completely map the turbo speed thresholds and put it into practice. I’m excited to see this new development and can’t wait until you get your Stinger back in the shop, but my statements still hold true at this point.

So to summarize, the turbos themselves are capable of 23psi+, but currently everyone is still hitting limiters around 20psi. So there is no denying the fact that Tonkabobs extra 3-4psi is essentially useless, AT THIS POINT, and its most likely hurting his top end HP/trap speeds.

I admit I’m not a tuner so my knowledge base is limited to what I read/learn, and I was making assumptions that the ineffectiveness over 20psi was due to turbo efficiency. So thanks for educating, clarifying and indirectly proving my point.

It truly didn’t make sense that with all the ECU tune advantages Tonka has over chips, he is still running slowly trap speeds than other Stingers with similar ETs. This all makes sense now, and I reiterated that his car can be even faster without hitting the turbo speed thresholds you stated at 20psi. Thanks again and hope Tonkabob understands I was simply noticing the results and trying to help.

Go Team Stingers and happy tuning all!

 

[STINGER]

I have a 6# $600 Braille battery in one of our race cars and it's awesome. But given how heavy the Stinger is to start I don't think 40# of weight savings is enough to justify the cost and headaches that come with a battery like that. That is unless you're trying to break some record or something.

What to do, when you have all the mods and there is no mod available in sight, money has to go somewhere

 

[StungBlueGT2]

THANK YOU JOHN! I'm starting to see your frustration and for you it has to be 10X.
The 16 psi all though rare would be supported by this table you shared yesterday.
So jb4 +8 potentially 24 psi lol.
You also shared several maps for limits by oil and water temps, all by rpm of course. @TorkMe Any truth to lower stock boost limits in 1st gear? And if true glad they are removed.
If jb4 has boost by gear it should be able to overide this (imaginary?) 1st gear limit as well.
View attachment 26011

Sorry brother but you’re still incorrect because the JB4 has safegaurd’s in place to restrict boost at anything over 20psi.
And never said lower boost limits in 1st gear, although there may be. I said stock Stingers don’t hit full boost in 1st gear and from all the logs, dynos, etc yours is the only one doubling the usual 10-11psi in first.

And lastly “boost by gear” is intended to limit boost by the set amount, not increase it.

No offense but you’re trying way too hard to prove me or JB4 users wrong without the proper knowledge yourself.

Let’s all take a step back and get this thread on topic. Again we are all on the same team, even though we take or play different positions. No one position is better than another and we all get further working together as a Stinger team. The real enemy is all the non believers that we all want to prove wrong and think we should keep that as our motivation going forward. 5.0s, SSs, & SRTs are all on notice and let’s keep showing them what the Stinger is all about.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I have logged and shared a little info on this, but have stayed away from the forums and most of the FB media bullshit because I have no time for this anymore. I am in here talking about this, because I have successfully ran 23 lbs of boost, on pump gas with moderate ignition timing, and it was wheel spin city in 3rd gear...

I've tested a wide range of boost levels on the dyno and power peaks around 18psi. You can squeeze a little more from 18-20psi but over 20psi exhaust back pressure really skyrockets and power drops proportionally. The fact that you choose to cite anecdotal "wheel spin" as support for your claim that 23psi+ of boost is making more power than 20psi of boost on stock turbos, to stay with a common theme, is kindergarten tuning.

You yourself posted a dyno last year showing a "massive" 342whp at 26psi+. Literally less power than the car makes at 13psi normally. It's not clear to me you've properly evaluated wastegate duty cycle or understand the relationship between wastegate duty cycle, boost, and exhaust back pressure. Not to mention the impact of excessive exhaust back pressure on the tuning at large.

 

[xot1]

Just as a side note, I have a JB4 log with the stock ECU boost going up to 14.6 psi.

 

[Tonkabob]

I have a 6# $600 Braille battery in one of our race cars and it's awesome. But given how heavy the Stinger is to start I don't think 40# of weight savings is enough to justify the cost and headaches that come with a battery like that. That is unless you're trying to break some record or something.

But it is better $ spent than a $600 midpipe!

 

[Terry@BMS]

The midpipe won't leave you stranded if you leave the ignition on for 10 minutes with the engine off.

 

[Tonkabob]

Sorry brother but you’re still incorrect because the JB4 has safegaurd’s in place to restrict boost at anything over 20psi.
And never said lower boost limits in 1st gear, although there may be. I said stock Stingers don’t hit full boost in 1st gear and from all the logs, dynos, etc yours is the only one doubling the usual 10-11psi in first.

And lastly “boost by gear” is intended to limit boost by the set amount, not increase it.

No offense but you’re trying way too hard to prove me or JB4 users wrong without the proper knowledge yourself.

Let’s all take a step back and get this thread on topic. Again we are all on the same team, even though we take or play different positions. No one position is better than another and we all get further working together as a Stinger team. The real enemy is all the non believers that we all want to prove wrong and think we should keep that as our motivation going forward. 5.0s, SSs, & SRTs are all on notice and let’s keep showing them what the Stinger is all about.

I have several of Dabears logs showing 23,24,25 PSI. ecu_psi = 20.1, target=6, Boost = 25.1. I guess the safeguards don't always work.

 

[Angel]

I have several of Dabears logs showing 23,24,25 PSI. ecu_psi = 20.1, target=6, Boost = 25.1. I guess the safeguards don't always work.

He also had primary down pipes aka no cats.

 

[Tonkabob]

I've tested a wide range of boost levels on the dyno and power peaks around 18psi. You can squeeze a little more from 18-20psi but over 20psi exhaust back pressure really skyrockets and power drops proportionally. The fact that you choose to cite anecdotal "wheel spin" as support for your claim that 23psi+ of boost is making more power than 20psi of boost on stock turbos, to stay with a common theme, is kindergarten tuning.

You yourself posted a dyno last year showing a "massive" 342whp at 26psi+. Literally less power than the car makes at 13psi normally. It's not clear to me you've properly evaluated wastegate duty cycle or understand the relationship between wastegate duty cycle, boost, and exhaust back pressure. Not to mention the impact of excessive exhaust back pressure on the tuning at large.

View attachment 26026

In addition to the wheel spin he stated 124 MPH dragy trap and 60-130 in the 8 second range which would be amazing since the fastest so far are My and Terrys low 10s. So at minimum over 1 second faster 60-130 and +3 MPH in the quarter.

He also had primary down pipes aka no cats.

Safeguards*
* actual safety may vary!

The midpipe won't leave you stranded if you leave the ignition on for 10 minutes with the engine off.

It does have that jump start feature that saves enough battery for one more start, hopefully.

Sorry brother but you’re still incorrect because the JB4 has safegaurd’s in place to restrict boost at anything over 20psi.
And never said lower boost limits in 1st gear, although there may be. I said stock Stingers don’t hit full boost in 1st gear and from all the logs, dynos, etc yours is the only one doubling the usual 10-11psi in first.

And lastly “boost by gear” is intended to limit boost by the set amount, not increase it.

No offense but you’re trying way too hard to prove me or JB4 users wrong without the proper knowledge yourself.

Let’s all take a step back and get this thread on topic. Again we are all on the same team, even though we take or play different positions. No one position is better than another and we all get further working together as a Stinger team. The real enemy is all the non believers that we all want to prove wrong and think we should keep that as our motivation going forward. 5.0s, SSs, & SRTs are all on notice and let’s keep showing them what the Stinger is all about.

Here is a log so you can stop worrying about my 22PSI of wasted boost. My 60 foots are 1.83 so 22PSI in first seems to be working very well.
My 4th gear is pretty mellow starting at 19 and tapering to 14 PSI. For higher traps I need a more aggressive 4th gear and WMI would help do that with its 20 degree lower temps than my UP FMIC.
Now back to weight savings....

 

[TorkMe]

Very exciting, can't wait to see what you guys are cooking up! Is your test car AWD or RWD?

RWD and we have Tonka for testing the AWD stuff for us.

 

[Terry@BMS]

It does have that jump start feature that saves enough battery for one more start, hopefully.

Doesn't really work and when the battery does run out of juice, every now and again you can't revive it. Can only be charged with a special charger. It's a good race car battery just know what you're signing up for.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I have several of Dabears logs showing 23,24,25 PSI. ecu_psi = 20.1, target=6, Boost = 25.1. I guess the safeguards don't always work.

We revise the logic as needed. He had a unique case I haven't seen before where it's going over target at only half throttle and let off before our safety kicked in.

We've since made the over boost safety more aggressive and will continue to refine as we see more ugly logs. So if you or anyone have an ugly log especially on current firmware lets see it so we can improve the JB4 logic further!

 

[TorkMe]

THANK YOU JOHN! I'm starting to see your frustration and for you it has to be 10X.
The 16 psi all though rare would be supported by this table you shared yesterday.
So jb4 +8 potentially 24 psi lol.
You also shared several maps for limits by oil and water temps, all by rpm of course. @TorkMe Any truth to lower stock boost limits in 1st gear? And if true glad they are removed.
If jb4 has boost by gear it should be able to overide this (imaginary?) 1st gear limit as well.
View attachment 26011

The frustration is huge, because so much is speculated in how the ECU works.

Yes, 16 psi is possible and that table is "commanded boost point"

With all the JB4 boost speculation... I will disagree to agree with you. For the fact that Terry used the actual sensor value to determine boost, shows just how limited his ECU knowledge is. Some ECU's have scalers built into them to limit or control the function of the boost sensor. Just because the sensor manufacture has the sensor readings at X and Y, doesn't meant that the ECU reads it the same way, or reports boost in the same way.

The boost being limited in 1st gear is not anything I have found inside the ECU, but... I have not found everything inside the ECU either.

There are limits that the JB4 cannnot override, even if you think they are, the ECU is making every attempt to adapt for those changes being "spoofed".

 

[TorkMe]

Here is a log so you can stop worrying about my 22PSI of wasted boost. My 60 foots are 1.83 so 22PSI in first seems to be working very well.
My 4th gear is pretty mellow starting at 19 and tapering to 14 PSI. For higher traps I need a more aggressive 4th gear and WMI would help do that with its 20 degree lower temps than my UP FMIC.
Now back to weight savings....

View attachment 26034

In the best impression I can give via Terry, "Its not recording in 1-100th of a nano second, so it not a good log", LOL!!!

Whoever's tune that is, damn... I wish the JB4 logs looked that good!

I will get more boost dialed into the upper gears soon, then we can start working on that 11.5/122+ quarter mile results. I have a ton of new area and maps inside the index now, and I have a lot of the dead throttle (limiter cut values) mapped, so the throttle close and inhibitors should all be addressed next time you come down.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Here is a log so you can stop worrying about my 22PSI of wasted boost. My 60 foots are 1.83 so 22PSI in first seems to be working very well.
My 4th gear is pretty mellow starting at 19 and tapering to 14 PSI. For higher traps I need a more aggressive 4th gear and WMI would help do that with its 20 degree lower temps than my UP FMIC.
Now back to weight savings....

View attachment 26034

Sorry but you sure seem butthurt about the fact that even John backed up my assumptions. I was never saying that 22psi in 1st wouldn’t work, but you could probably run a 1.83 with less than double stock boost. I’m worried for your drivetrain not for if it helps 60ft times. Either way as John said anything above 20psi is hitting limiters and is useless. But either way you don’t have to listen to the facts or my help and enjoy your Stinger as long as it lasts with such extreme boost in 1st gear.

 

[TorkMe]

First, thank you for the respectful response and information to help us all learn.

Second, if you’ve seen stock Stingers run 16psi please share photos/screenshots so everyone can see it as a fact instead of hearsay. And is it safe to assume that’s an AWD Stinger since they run ~2psi more than the more common RWD Stingers?

Third, all my info is based on facts, but I’m only talking about the current platform and it’s parameters, not what you as a tuner have in development. You’re explanation actually proves my point, and at 20psi we all currently hit a wall of turbine speed limiters. I don’t deny that our stock turbos can run 23psi+ with minimal ignition timing and have seen your posts/videos stating this. However that won’t be until you or other tuners completely map the turbo speed thresholds and put it into practice. I’m excited to see this new development and can’t wait until you get your Stinger back in the shop, but my statements still hold true at this point.

So to summarize, the turbos themselves are capable of 23psi+, but currently everyone is still hitting limiters around 20psi. So there is no denying the fact that Tonkabobs extra 3-4psi is essentially useless, AT THIS POINT, and its most likely hurting his top end HP/trap speeds.

I admit I’m not a tuner so my knowledge base is limited to what I read/learn, and I was making assumptions that the ineffectiveness over 20psi was due to turbo efficiency. So thanks for educating, clarifying and indirectly proving my point.

It truly didn’t make sense that with all the ECU tune advantages Tonka has over chips, he is still running slowly trap speeds than other Stingers with similar ETs. This all makes sense now, and I reiterated that his car can be even faster without hitting the turbo speed thresholds you stated at 20psi. Thanks again and hope Tonkabob understands I was simply noticing the results and trying to help.

Go Team Stingers and happy tuning all!

So, my experience and my word are worth nothing on this forum? I have to prove everything I do, yet Terry gets a pass on all the dumb shit he says? Uhg, screen shots attached of both 16 psi and a video of what 25 + psi looks like

The 16 psi target was hit after 4 repeated passes in 5th gear, we were testing adaptive.

No, you comments are not fact based... the are facts that you believe because you are talking about factors and ECU limits you do not understand. So, to you... they may be factual, to me... they are misinformation. No I didn't prove you point, I corrected your misinformation. Again... the 20 psi limit is not the limit of the turbos, but its the limit of the ECU, that is a more accurate statement.

Wait...what? And you have seen TonkaBobs tune? You know the parameters we are testing? So, you are now making assumptions about tuning parameters inside other tunes that you have no idea about, or whats been done, but... "that extra 2-3 psi is useless". May want to tell that to the current 1/4 mile record holder

Lets get something clear, I am not here to indirectly do anything. If I have a point to make, it will be direct and stated as such. I am done being nice to the Stinger market because a few people in this Stinger market have made the Stinger experience suck for me as a tuner.

Maybe Tonka is running slower trap speeds because I want him to run slower trap speeds? Maybe we would rather chase the 330 ft mark times, vs high trap speeds because every .1 off the first 330 ft is worth more to me in ET than trap speeds. Lets be honest, who races on the street and focuses on "trap speeds" A true fast street car is a red light to red light monster, not "we have 2 MPH more in trap speed", LOL!!!

If you were trying to help, you would ask experts in the Stinger ECU to come forward and explain somethings. Or, pick up a damn book and start reading about the SIM2K ECU operation. Instead, we get people making stupid speculation based off Terry's "this is how a BMW does it" and that only generates more stupid speculation. I ran 11.98 at 119 MPH a year ago, this was with 290 maps inside my map index. Now, I have 700 + maps and a lot of additional testing that we need to get done to drive even deeper into the 11.

 

[Kamauxx]

So, my experience and my word are worth nothing on this forum? I have to prove everything I do, yet Terry gets a pass on all the dumb shit he says?

This reeks of jealousy. You're like a kid arguing with his parents because he thinks they show favoritism toward his baby brother.

You're treated the way you're treated because of how you've behaved.