Stinger pulling timing after secondary downpipes

[Proberge4273]

Hi - Everyone,
I just had a set of NGT secondary downpipes installed a couple of days ago, and I'm noticing an issue with my Stinger that I'm not sure is related to the installation.

When I first got the car back, everything seemed to be running smoothly on the drive home. I stopped to fill up with 4 gallons of E85 and topped off with 93 for my hour-long drive back. The car continued to run smoothly after refueling, and I parked it for the night. The next day, I took it out to see if there were any performance gains with the new downpipes. However, I noticed that when pushing the car in Map 0 at high RPMS, it would hesitate and backfire a couple of times. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to capture any logs on JB4 when this happened.

I was suspecting bad gas or maybe too much E85, so I decided to run the tank down to half and refill with straight 93. Since refuling with 93, the backfiring and hesitation have stopped but now I've noticed another issue. The car is pulling timing by almost 4 degrees in map 0, whereas before the downpipe install it could run any map with only 0.8-degree of fluctuations in timing.

The spark plugs don't have many miles on them and were working perfectly fine before the installation. What could be causing this? I have attached a couple logs in each map if you guys could take a look.

 

[Shades_of_grey]

Do you have EWG wires? Sounds like you are having overboost issues.

 

[Shades_of_grey]

Also, what plugs are you running, what gap? Fuel wires? What all mods do you have? Anytime you change the primaries even with race high flow cats, you typically will throw a code. I've experienced multiple issues after primaries, including hot and cold charge pipes plus intercooler. Mainly waste gate issues. Definitely sounds like an overboost issue, but need to know all the mods.

 

[Proberge4273]

Do you have EWG wires? Sounds like you are having overboost issues.

No I do not have the ewg wires installed only the fuel wires

 

[Proberge4273]

Also, what plugs are you running, what gap? Fuel wires? What all mods do you have? Anytime you change the primaries even with race high flow cats, you typically will throw a code. I've experienced multiple issues after primaries, including hot and cold charge pipes plus intercooler. Mainly waste gate issues. Definitely sounds like an overboost issue, but need to know all the mods.

I have the HKS plugs gapped at the 0.22 with only the fuel wires installed no ewg. I have only changed the secondary’s to the ngt the primary’s are still stock OEM ones. Mods currently are Injen intakes, snorkels, oil catch can, borla exhaust, ngt secondary downpipes, JB4. I haven’t had any limp mode caused by overboost and looking at my logs my boost only ranges from 18-19psi max.

 

[Shades_of_grey]

Would definitely advise on getting the ewg wires. It is the easiest way to mitigate your issues imo. Once I learned how to adjust and what to look for, solved everything in a matter of minutes! Btw..I am full bolt on, plus some. Ewg connections were the best and cheapest investment that solved so many issues, especially if you are running e85 blends as me.

 

[Proberge4273]

Would definitely advise on getting the ewg wires. It is the easiest way to mitigate your issues imo. Once I learned how to adjust and what to look for, solved everything in a matter of minutes! Btw..I am full bolt on, plus some. Ewg connections were the best and cheapest investment that solved so many issues, especially if you are running e85 blends as me.

Okay I’ll definitely take a look at them and get a set ordered was the installation pretty easy and straightforward? I’ve also read simply just resetting the ECU will fix some timing corrections so I may give that a go as well once I run this tank completely gone and fill up with some gas I know is good so I can rule out gas.

 

[Shades_of_grey]

The spit and sputtering is likely your AFR. The hpfp isn't able to keep up with your e85 timing..I have scaled mine back to 3.75 gallons, and adjusted my ewg to 43 and it's like a scalded ape now. No issues. Problem is, you are now having so much free flow exhaust, that your exhaust turbo fins are over spinning..if your not getting codes, you are right at the edge of overboost and the jb4 is keeping you safe, which is good..if you go to map 2 or 3, which you should be running e85 blends, that technically should help, as that will adjust your afr as well as your timing corrections. You have way too.many mods for map 0. Theoretically, you should be in at least map.2 if not map 3 with e85. Sounds like you are running an e30 blend which would most definitely be map 3. Try it, trust me, you will love it, but still.highly recommend ewg wires for.fine tuning!

 

[Shades_of_grey]

Resetting the ECU cures a lot of issues, but in your case, the ecu is never going to acclimate to your mods without ewg or going up in maps with e85. It's pulling timing corrections because of the ethanol. Map 0 has no corrections for ethanol..and based on a basic bolt on (intakes, exhaust) on 91 octane. You definitely need to be on at least map 2 with your bolt ons..especially if you are running hks gapped to .22. You are starving the engine right now simply with that plug gap and e85.

 

[Proberge4273]

The spit and sputtering is likely your AFR. The hpfp isn't able to keep up with your e85 timing..I have scaled mine back to 3.75 gallons, and adjusted my ewg to 43 and it's like a scalded ape now. No issues. Problem is, you are now having so much free flow exhaust, that your exhaust turbo fins are over spinning..if your not getting codes, you are right at the edge of overboost and the jb4 is keeping you safe, which is good..if you go to map 2 or 3, which you should be running e85 blends, that technically should help, as that will adjust your afr as well as your timing corrections. You have way too.many mods for map 0. Theoretically, you should be in at least map.2 if not map 3 with e85. Sounds like you are running an e30 blend which would most definitely be map 3. Try it, trust me, you will love it, but still.highly recommend ewg wires for.fine tuning!

Okay that makes sense I definitely think I added a bit more e85 than I was supposed to I think I stopped it over 4 gallons and the car wasn’t on empty too so that makes sense with the sputtering and was cleared up after filling up more with 93. I do notice what people are saying with overboosting on first gear my car does let off right before the shift and sometimes In higher gears too so I will definitely place an order for the ewg wires. I rarely ever run an e30 blend since the closet gas station is roughly 30-40 minutes away I only fill on e30 when I pass by that gas station. Even on pump 93 and my mods you think stay on map 2. I only run map 0 for daily for gas mileage but I’m pretty sure somewhere it said if it’s out of boost the mpg stays the same no matter what map.

 

[oddball]

Wait...................... did you run map 0 while having e30 in the tank??????????

The Stinger is NOT a flex fuel vehicle. The ECU doesn't know that you're running E30, so you just threw a completely different fuel at it. Yes, it'll be pissed and things won't work right. You could destroy the engine doing that. If you're lucky the ECU will see that things are wrong and pull timing and back off before things explode. If you're slightly less lucky, then it'll throw lean on the top end and kick a rod out the side of the block.

You MUST run the appropriate map with e30 in the tank.


Secondary cats don't affect the car a whole lot - you don't need EWG wires or anything. Fuel wires are always a good idea. No supporting mods are necessary. But having e30 in the tank? Yeah, that's a problem. You must do *something* to account for the much higher volume of fuel that's necessary with e30 compared to e10. The JB4 can fake-out the MAP/TMAP to convince the ECU there's a sufficiently different amount of air in the cylinder to force the ECU to shoot the correct amount of e30, but the JB4 has to know that's what you want.

 

[Proberge4273]

Wait...................... did you run map 0 while having e30 in the tank??????????

The Stinger is NOT a flex fuel vehicle. The ECU doesn't know that you're running E30, so you just threw a completely different fuel at it. Yes, it'll be pissed and things won't work right. You could destroy the engine doing that. If you're lucky the ECU will see that things are wrong and pull timing and back off before things explode. If you're slightly less lucky, then it'll throw lean on the top end and kick a rod out the side of the block.

You MUST run the appropriate map with e30 in the tank.


Secondary cats don't affect the car a whole lot - you don't need EWG wires or anything. Fuel wires are always a good idea. No supporting mods are necessary. But having e30 in the tank? Yeah, that's a problem. You must do *something* to account for the much higher volume of fuel that's necessary with e30 compared to e10. The JB4 can fake-out the MAP/TMAP to convince the ECU there's a sufficiently different amount of air in the cylinder to force the ECU to shoot the correct amount of e30, but the JB4 has to know that's what yo

yes I have ran map 0 on e30 before but just this once I was pushing it on map 0 on e30 I had to pass a car and got on it and noticed it cutting and let off right away and then I switched it to map 2 an 3 and it was doing the same thing so I was suspecting bad gas and drove around normally on map 0 to drain the e30.

Normally I only daily driving the car on map 0 on e30 and whenever I want to have some fun or do some pulls I would always switch it to map 2 or 3. I rarely ever do any map 0 pulls on e30 those logs above where right after I filled up on more 93 so it shouldn’t have been at e30. Should I not even daily drive on map 0 on e30? And always keep it on map 3 and above when on e30? I don’t plan on running anymore e30 blends until I can get the cpi kit and the flex sensor so I can be safe with it and not blow up a motor.

 

[Proberge4273]

yes I have ran map 0 on e30 before but only daily driving the car and whenever I want to have some fun or do some pulls I would always switch it to map 2 or 3. I rarely ever do any map 0 pulls on e30 those logs above where right after I filled up on more 93 so it shouldn’t have been at e30. Should I not even daily drive on map 0 on e30? And always keep it on map 3 and above when on e30? I don’t plan on running anymore e30 blends until I can get the cpi kit and the flex sensor so I can be safe with it and not blow up a motor.

Is that why people always disconnect the battery to reset the ECU after they fill up on e30 to reset the computers for the e-blend. I haven’t done that before maybe I should start.

 

[oddball]

Yes!!!
To be clear, it'll *work*, but e30 requires something like 10% to 15% more fuel than e10 to maintain the same lambda. The ECU can react to this mostly OK, but doing that much correction all the time is risky. And any moment the ECU goes back to the base map will be really lean.
Just putting around is fine because the demands aren't high. But really lean into it and that's when bad shit happens.
I would keep it on map3 whenever e30 is in the tank. You don't *have* to drive like a hooligan on map3 - it's entirely optional!

 

[Proberge4273]

Yes!!!
To be clear, it'll *work*, but e30 requires something like 10% to 15% more fuel than e10 to maintain the same lambda. The ECU can react to this mostly OK, but doing that much correction all the time is risky. And any moment the ECU goes back to the base map will be really lean.
Just putting around is fine because the demands aren't high. But really lean into it and that's when bad shit happens.
I would keep it on map3 whenever e30 is in the tank. You don't *have* to drive like a hooligan on map3 - it's entirely optional!

Okay perfect that makes sense I’ll definitely keep her in map 3 whenever e30 is in the tank and I’ll reset the ECU after switching different gas. Is it okay to daily drive on map 0 on pump 93 with my mods and plugs or should I keep it in at least map 1?

I was able to unplug the battery for awhile to reset the ECU and I filled up on 93 from a good gas station and did some more logs. Map 0 and map 1 was good through the logs at 0.8 corrections but as soon as I threw it into map 2 it was getting upwards of 3-4 corrections so I’m not sure what is going on. It definitely felt a lot slower before but more smooth through the powerband. I’ll attach the logs if you could take a look and maybe give me some suggestions.

 

[zombiedude]

Okay perfect that makes sense I’ll definitely keep her in map 3 whenever e30 is in the tank and I’ll reset the ECU after switching different gas. Is it okay to daily drive on map 0 on pump 93 with my mods and plugs or should I keep it in at least map 1?

I was able to unplug the battery for awhile to reset the ECU and I filled up on 93 from a good gas station and did some more logs. Map 0 and map 1 was good through the logs at 0.8 corrections but as soon as I threw it into map 2 it was getting upwards of 3-4 corrections so I’m not sure what is going on. It definitely felt a lot slower before but more smooth through the powerband. I’ll attach the logs if you could take a look and maybe give me some suggestions.

Why are you so worried about the Map its in? Map 1 and 2 can be left on constantly, as oddball mentioned, the map doesn't dictate how hard you beat on it, you do. Don't quote me if I'm wrong but even Map 3 should be fine if you aren't under boost and actively requesting lots of power on 93, definitely Map3 or Map4 if you have any E-mix beyond Pump E10. It doesn't worsen your gas mileage in the higher maps if you aren't under boost either, having E85 in your tank will though. What it does do is save you from harming your engine for when you do get on it. I just set up my JB4 a few weeks ago and just leave it on Map2 daily. Zero issues or concerns, when I floor it the power is there, when I'm rolling around town its just like being stock.

 

[Thomby]

I disagree with some of what's been posted. E85 has 25-30% less energy than normal gas (E10), so E30 will have ~10% less. Stoich is ~10% higher, and mileage ~10% worse.

From what I understand, the JB4 only modifies the MAP/TMAP signals to convince the ECU boost pressure is lower, so it'll spool the turbos more, but actual AFR is adjusted based on the O2 sensors. When you add "fuel wires" (which you don't need to run E30), they just lean out AFR up high because the ECU is overly conservative.

I do not believe the JB4 does anything to enrich the mixture for ethanol mixes, nor do higher maps manipulate AFR or accommodate E30 differently (you just have more boost/heat and therefore need the octane). I see zero reason E30 would hurt your car on lower maps, and have had no issues on any map (0-5) with E30 in my tank.

Remember that the wiper stalk map control feature kicks you into Map 0 when you turn the wipers on (as do any overboosts), and I can't imagine BMS would do this if E30 were a problem on lower maps. @Terry@BMS am I wrong on any of this?

 

[MetalMania80]

Your logs look good. The corrections are minor ( do not exceed 3.8-4), are late at the 4th gear and no Ign1 retraction (no knock detected).

Stock HPFP can deal up to E35-40; there is no HPFP crush in your logs.


Get Ek1 and BMF from SleepTuned. They are doing some miracles with the stock HPFP. It runs higher pressure, and with BMF from them, my trims at 20psi with Ign 20deg went down from >50 to below <40 !! !!