COBB said No for now. Others need to bug them.

[Doel]

And just a wild guess, Subaru probably sells more Cobb tunable platform sharing vehicles in a quarter than Kiaundai's 3.3t will do in a year. And they've been doing it for more than a decade? (I don't know anything about Subaru)

If I were running Cobb I wouldn't bother with the 3.3t either.

In other tuning news, Tork says they've successfully cloned a spare ECU. They should be updating their website with more information in a week or so. So there's that...

Look at it this way, Cobb tunes the Focus RS, GTR, Ford Raptor, and Golf R. Not sure about the Raptor, but I know the other 3 cars have unique drivelines that no other models use. There is no question that the 3.3tt driveline will outsell all those models this year, and probably did last year as well. The difference isn't that those cars are selling more than ours, they aren't, it's the number of people modifying them. As I said earlier, give our platform another 3 years and we're going to see an exponential increase in interest in tuning these cars, more interest means more dollars spent, more dollars spent means more companies jumping in trying to get some of that money. We'll see some major players jump in down the road, no question, unless some serious flaw in the design of this platform is discovered.

This is a brand new platform, it sucks for us right now but it will take several years before the tuning market really adopts it.

 

[Terry@BMS]

In other tuning news, Tork says they've successfully cloned a spare ECU. They should be updating their website with more information in a week or so. So there's that...

Why would you ever want to clone the ECU unless you fried the factory one?

The transmission module, stability control modules, ABS, and others store peak torque/load demand and other data that will show the vehicle had been flashed at some point.

 

[terrelltechsup]

This is just my opinion(mainframe sysprog here): COBB for example. 90% of the work is done. The hardware is well fleshed out, the support staff exists, they are liquid. Their investment would solely be Tuner labor cost plus dyno time. Say the tuner makes $100/hour and it takes 50 hours to get something worthwhile that is sell-able. Take the cost of the Ford Ecoboost Accessport: $650. Lets add another $5k for dyno time and time spent customizing the hardware and we are at $10k. They would have to sell 16 units to be in the black. I know I am overgeneralizing their cost model but still, even if I was way off base and it was double, that would still be 32 units to be in the black.

 

[Terry@BMS]

Multiple the numbers by maybe 100 lol. The economics are not there yet but will be down the road. Part of the issue is that the number of people willing to flash their cars is going to remain lower until the factory warranty period is over.

The Raptor for example shares the flashing process with all Ford EcoBoost motors so it wasn't a unique implementation.

 

[terrelltechsup]

Multiple the numbers by maybe 100 lol. The economics are not there yet but will be down the road. Part of the issue is that the number of people willing to flash their cars is going to remain lower until the factory warranty period is over.

The Raptor for example shares the flashing process with all Ford EcoBoost motors so it wasn't a unique implementation.

Question for you just for my personal knowledge: How many hours were you in for on this platform before you had something you could start recouping costs?

 

[Terry@BMS]

Piggyback development is a lot different than flash tuning development, most of the time investment is in the tuning hardware itself.

To adapt a flash tune module including map development a company would probably be looking at around $150k and 3-6 months which is a drop in the bucket, they'd make it back after say 300-400 unit sales. But the problem is time/energy is limited and there are other much larger markets they can turn to first. Given the longer warranty period of the Kia's that is also a turn off from a large scale flash development perspective.

 

[terrelltechsup]

Piggyback development is a lot different than flash tuning development, most of the time investment is in the tuning hardware itself.

To adapt a flash tune module including map development a company would probably be looking at around $150k and 3-6 months which is a drop in the bucket, they'd make it back after say 300-400 unit sales. But the problem is time/energy is limited and there are other much larger markets they can turn to first. Given the longer warranty period of the Kia's that is also a turn off from a large scale flash development perspective.

Great information thank you.

 

[techguy888]

That's too bad about Cobb. I had an Accessport on my STI - I've always seen this product as basically the industry standard.

 

[Oryan]

Every KDM platform has asked Cobb this same question. Every platform was told to kick rocks in varying degrees of politeness. I don't see that changing. BTR is working on a ECU tune but they're being pretty quiet about their progress, and I'd imagine SFR is doing the same as well. If you think BMS and Tork have pissing contests on here wait until those two arrive.

 

[brancky3]

Every KDM platform has asked Cobb this same question. Every platform was told to kick rocks in varying degrees of politeness. I don't see that changing. BTR is working on a ECU tune but they're being pretty quiet about their progress, and I'd imagine SFR is doing the same as well. If you think BMS and Tork have pissing contests on here wait until those two arrive.

I'm fine with pissing matches as long as they can actually provide data to prove they're better!

 

[terrelltechsup]

Ya they can constructively argue all they want as long as progress is being made. I argue with devs all the time until they see why reading every record of a 15 million row DB2 table into storage and then looping through every record to find a value is not the way to go about doing business. We go home then come back the next day and argue about something else.

 

[RLam]

Look at it this way, Cobb tunes the Focus RS, GTR, Ford Raptor, and Golf R. Not sure about the Raptor, but I know the other 3 cars have unique drivelines that no other models use. There is no question that the 3.3tt driveline will outsell all those models this year, and probably did last year as well. The difference isn't that those cars are selling more than ours, they aren't, it's the number of people modifying them. As I said earlier, give our platform another 3 years and we're going to see an exponential increase in interest in tuning these cars, more interest means more dollars spent, more dollars spent means more companies jumping in trying to get some of that money. We'll see some major players jump in down the road, no question, unless some serious flaw in the design of this platform is discovered.

This is a brand new platform, it sucks for us right now but it will take several years before the tuning market really adopts it.

The difference involved with those unique vehicles is that they really aren’t to a certain degree. The RS shares an engine with the mustang and now the ranger. The raptor shares a 3.5 TT with how many MILLIONS of vehicles already on the road or in the future. Not to mention the tuning strategy of the eco boost engines is probably close to same across all of the engines, as is the VW family (R/GTI). The GTR is just a super car so meh. Why not. So yes those ENGINES and factory tuning strategies are outselling ours by many, many times.

 

[Ritz]

Too bad one of these more forward thinking tuning shops isn't nearby. I have zero issue taking a brand new car and putting 5-10k into the drivetrain if it will get me a reasonably reliable 600-700hp without a lot of smoke and mirrors, alcohol injection, etc.

 

[Pnbnationsbest]

The difference involved with those unique vehicles is that they really aren’t to a certain degree. The RS shares an engine with the mustang and now the ranger. The raptor shares a 3.5 TT with how many MILLIONS of vehicles already on the road or in the future. Not to mention the tuning strategy of the eco boost engines is probably close to same across all of the engines, as is the VW family (R/GTI). The GTR is just a super car so meh. Why not. So yes those ENGINES and factory tuning strategies are outselling ours by many, many times.

I used to tune the EB platform for the first to tune, most accomplished (WR HP, TQ, 1/8,4,2 mile ET) and largest EB tuner out there. The EB cars/trucks are surprisingly different from each other. The FiST and FoST are not even related. The FoST and RS aren't either. They are ~80% identical in every way. The RS and EB S550 are VERY different from the engine block to ECU logic! Even the F-150 and Raptor are not close to being twins, but more like siblings. The only 2 "separate" platforms that are almost twins are the SHO and X-Sport. The company that I worked for has their own proprietary hardware and use software that NOBODY uses...except for one GIANT elliptical international company. That is all of the info that I can share without getting sued LOL.

As for us getting actual handheld ECU flash tuning, a company will have to dev software that will talk to, and get replies from our canbus system...HINT HINT. The OBD port is an AMAZING thing, BUT it takes real know-how to get accomplished what we all want. Just ask any Mopar guy. The company I worked for was the ONLY ECU tuner for the 13+ Mopar guys for years! They tuned the whole lot of the SRT vehicles for years with a flash and handheld tuner when Arrington (aftermarket hand of FCA) needed a whole new ECU. I am positive that there are guys that can talk to the ECU in the CK cars, but getting replies is a whole different world.

The Cobb AP, SCT X4 and/or BDX could all work from a hardware POV, but we need a tuning company that wants to set records to jump in before actual flash software is even a thought. SCT as an actual tuning company has been dead since they lost their founder. He was the one that pushed SCT to where they got. Now they are basically a hardware and software vendor for tuning companies. Cobb is primarily only worried about the JDM and Subie world, because of the numbers. Can't fault them there. They dabble in a few other pools, but they are not going to take on a "project market" like the KDM's.

There are a TON of companies out there that have the tuning capability/skill to tune the CK, like boost controlled performance in Michigan for example, but who knows if they want to tie themselves up in a new market. They would also need the help of the Cobb lead calibrators for the base mapping. I have never seen the logic of our cars, so I do not know how similar (if at all) it is to the Subaru and EVO ECU's.

I know that my old company will not tune the CK. They do ZERO import tuning, PERIOD.

There is a company based in Tennessee that I cannot name, but they do both software and hardware dev internally. The guy at the helm of their tuning, Roger, is a freaking wizard! Figure out the company and ask them. They tune a ton of different makes too!

The best bet in my opinion would be to bother our local Cobb tuners and see if they can force Cobb to dev base mapping and software support for us. There would need to be 2 willing owners (one local to Cobb and one to a Cobb tuning partner) to donate their cars for who knows how long for us to get flash tuning.

 

[TwinSnails]

@Pnbnationsbest .... I’m racking my brain on who was first to Tune the EcoBoost now, lol.

I ran a 13’ F150 EB with more flashes through it than anyone and that is NOT an exaggeration... I ran Unleashed, 5 Star, a test MPT, and SSi.

All were on the SCT but I do think Superchips had the first tunes (and they really were unstable from truck to truck - “canned tunes”).

Between Torrie McPhail and Shawn Ellis... there was absolute magic in their E-Tunes.

 

[Pnbnationsbest]

@Pnbnationsbest .... I’m racking my brain on who was first to Tune the EcoBoost now, lol.

I ran a 13’ F150 EB with more flashes through it than anyone and that is NOT an exaggeration... I ran Unleashed, 5 Star, a test MPT, and SSi.

All were on the SCT but I do think Superchips had the first tunes (and they really were unstable from truck to truck - “canned tunes”).

Between Torrie McPhail and Shawn Ellis... there was absolute magic in their E-Tunes.

The only company you didn't mention, literally.

 

[Ritz]

The only company you didn't mention, literally.

The only big "tuning" outfit of real size I know of in TN is Hypertech. I wasn't aware of them doing a lot of work in the EB space.

Best,

 

[Metalmania82]

Seoulful Racing (SFR) and BTR (Blood Type Racing, Inc) are two that I know of. As much HP as their tunes pull out of NA engines like the Genesis 3.8 AND the H-K 4 banger theta, I'm surprised they haven't jumped on the Stinger yet.

Maybe they need a donor/research car.....

SFR is local to me and as soon as I got my Stinger I reached out to Jay again to see about having him flash my car. He'd previously done my '13 Rio N/A and he has tuning events all over the country and even outside the country for the Genesis. I got no response from SFR on various forms of communication that I tried. Unfortunately.