it's starting to happen, is this the future for the Stinger? Volvo S60

[MerlintheMad]

Enter idle stop & go which solves this problem almost completely.

I personally can't wait to go electric once the infrastructure allows it. Much faster cars, no emissions, etc etc. Is anyone going to sit here and say that they wouldn't prefer a 0-60 time in the low 3 second range in an electric sedan?

Yes. I like top speed. Acceleration burns up tires. Beyond a point, what's the point? Oh, drag racing. Not into that. And accelerating like a 1:1 "scale" RC or slot car sounds about as enticing as going deaf.

ISG solves nothing on the Stinger, since it turns "OFF" (engine back on) far more than it remains quiescent.

 

[MerlintheMad]

there's some confusion here, I feel like a lot of people didn't read what I wrote. This is NOT an electric car, it's a plug in hybrid. In my example above, the "GTE" would have the same 3.3 TT engine with an ADDITIONAL electric engine. You would seriously pay more for a car that's a lot slower and less efficient just because it has "electric contamination"? Why are you driving a Stinger instead of a 70s Mustang? I hate to break it to you, but our cars have electrical components everywhere. From the brakes to the differential, suspension, transmission, steering, and yes the engine itself. Adding an additional electric engine to the platform serves the same purpose as all the other existing electrical components. "Electric contamination" has been here a long time and you didn't even notice.

You ask if people actually read what you wrote; then proceed to dissect what I said and do a botched job of it.

Context: "electric contamination" is all about power plant, nothing whatsoever about electric tech. The core word here is BORING: electric motors are boring; as said by another, they feel like they have no "soul".

I drive a Stinger because no other car for the money comes close to giving the same experience in total. Other cars have more of this or that or the other thing; but not a total package. The Stinger called to me. I have watched cars come on the market for my whole life. And this is the first/only time I have pulled the trigger on a brand new car. (And you think/assert that I am some bimbo witless fool who didn't notice the learning curve with all that electric tech that I have been attacking for the last nine months!)

 

[Mike_TX]

Some of us have zero interest in hybrids and electric cars. And, calisting, I cannot see driverless cars being a big thing in the next 5-8 years ... there are simply too many hurdles that AI cannot clear for them to become mainstream in the near term. Maybe in limited usage - like airport shuttles - in highly-controlled areas, but not on the highways and byways of America.

The good ol' internal combustion engine is doing fine, thank you, and it has become so clean that the environmental argument for hybrids and electrics has lost its impetus. The whole electric-assisted thing has shifted to performance rather than emissions.

Looking long term, I think electrics and hybrids are just a stepping stone to a future tech or fuel that will eventually power our cars, trucks and buses.

 

[Doel]

Yes. I like top speed. Acceleration burns up tires. Beyond a point, what's the point? Oh, drag racing. Not into that. And accelerating like a 1:1 "scale" RC or slot car sounds about as enticing as going deaf.

ISG (Idle Stop and Go) solves nothing on the Stinger, since it turns "OFF" (engine back on) far more than it remains quiescent.

you've officially lost your mind. You like top speed.... exactly how many times have you hit top speed in the Stinger? 0? EVs have top speeds over 150, how often have you gone over 150 in the Stinger? 0? The Stinger has way more acceleration than anyone needs in a road car, I can't even floor it in my stock GT in first without the back end kicking out. Saying "what's the point of more acceleration" is insane coming from someone who purchased a performance sedan who's #1 selling point is its acceleration capabilities.

I'm not even talking about EVs here, I'm talking about plug in performance hybrids.
More exciting than regular ICE vehicles because you have more low end torque.
Just as practical and efficient as ICE because it is still an ICE vehicle. Why in the heck would I sacrifice gas mileage for performance if in the future I can get better gas mileage AND better performance at the same time? "MerlinetheMad" is an appropriate name for you.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Don’t fool yourself. The Hyundai group sees that they need to go upmarket to make profits required to survive. There is a reason they are filling their ranks with BMW, Audi and Bentley execs. Lunched global platforms in luxuary space and are investing in technology. They are trying to break into high margin markets dominated by Porsche (small premium SUVs and sedans), BMW, Audi, etc. Most people don’t realize Porsche makes mostly small premium SUVs and sedans. Not sports cars and they are one of most profitable companies in industry.

Kia and Hyundai to survive must transform their product lines into more balanced offering of premium cars and be technology leaders. I have some technology insights into automotive markets and can tell you Hyundai group is falling behind and may not survive the transformation that is coming . I used to work at this “Fruit” company with a guy named Steve Jobs over a decade ago. Never forget sitting with him when he said you see HP, Compaq and Dell? They are all racing to bottom competing on price. “Fruit” company is going to focus on technology transformation , innovation and overall customer experience and not lower prices. Look where they are now.

Mark my words. Automotive industry and players are about to see biggest shakeup in their history in next 5-8 years with autonomous cars. Some believe tech companies will dominate car markets and companies like Hyundai will become contract manufacturers. I’m not sure if that will happen but certainly if car companies don’t transform their technology and become content providers in technology based transportation they will lose out and perhaps die.

The new leadership at Hyundai clearly is signal they recognized Korean leadership at Hyundai wasn’t on fast track to modernizing their product offerings. Market is voting right now and they are losing. Doesn’t mean Stinger is a bad car it’s just not what broader markets are demanding and I’m sure it’s a nightmare to the new leadership team that dealers are having to heavily discount this Stinger to prop up sales and even with discounts sales are still plummeting .

Wave of mid to high end electrics and high hybrids that will hit markets next year will suck even more oxygen out of markets Hyundai is trying to sell traditional entry level luxury cars. They missed the boat. Show rooms are going to be filled with mind blowing electrics and hybrids starting next year. I suspect Elon is both crapping his pants and satisfied his vision is being realized.

Don’t get me wrong I love analog car world and just recently ordered one of the last true analog Porsche 911s to be made. And I’m a Stinger owner. But me and gear heads like me are not wave of future in automotive world.

There isn't much in that fulsome commentary that I can criticize. Other than "sales are still plummeting": they haven't started to plummet, because they are still within the fluctuation range of up and down month sales. When the sales of Stingers drop below a thousand and stay there, dipping lower over time, then your "prophecy" will be true. Till then, your continued assertion that sales are "plummeting" is nothing more than that.

Will there be a market of ICE vehicles (especially sporty ones) in the near future? Only as long as petrol stations cover the earth. When they start to literally dry up and blow away, then ICE will turn into the same kind of niche interest as vintage WW1 and WW2 aircraft. They won't entirely disappear, for historical interests sake, but the public won't be driving them to go anywhere anymore.

 

[Doel]

You ask if people actually read what you wrote; then proceed to dissect what I said and do a botched job of it.

Context: "electric contamination" is all about power plant, nothing whatsoever about electric tech. The core word here is BORING: electric motors are boring; as said by another, they feel like they have no "soul".

I drive a Stinger because no other car for the money comes close to giving the same experience in total. Other cars have more of this or that or the other thing; but not a total package. The Stinger called to me. I have watched cars come on the market for my whole life. And this is the first/only time I have pulled the trigger on a brand new car. (And you think/assert that I am some bimbo witless fool who didn't notice the learning curve with all that electric tech that I have been attacking for the last nine months!)

someone better tell Porsche their 918 Hybrid supercar has "no soul" lmao!!

absolutely amazing car and it has TWO electric engines, give me some of that "electric contamination" all day baby!

 

[MerlintheMad]

"MerlinetheMad" is an appropriate name for you.

Thank you for noticing. I picked it, after all. (the mad part anyway)

You are a contradiction: you say that your backend hangs out already when you punch the Stinger; and yet you want more torque that you cannot use. Heh. I said, the Stinger is enough as-is; why would I want more torque? It has enough. I only drive on the road. I've never driven a track in my life. And yes I have gone over 150, once in my life, in this car. So big deal, an EV can go over 150. Can it do 245? Rhetorical question. Moot discussion, really, since from my "mad" perspective this is all about (bottom line) retaining fossil fuels for those of us who want to keep using them: instead of having groupthink (dangerous) people telling us what to do; how it's going to be; suck it up; go to hell.

I want to drive THIS car for the rest of my days, anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, and I don't want anybody telling me that it's some contributing evil to an asserted "cause" of the death of the planet, etc. ad nauseam. We only have electric motors, hybrids and dedicated EV, because of that. There is no other reason why this push for EV is happening.

 

[westcoastGT]

someone better tell Porsche their 918 Hybrid supercar has "no soul" lmao!!

absolutely amazing car and it has TWO electric engines, give me some of that "electric contamination" all day baby!

My last BMW was a Hybrid X6 , it was powered by a 400 HP 5L TT V8 and 2 Electric Engines contributing 80 addditional HP .................that was an unvbelievably fast car .............low end torque and extra HP , virtually NOTHING beat it off the line P cars included

 

[MisterMac]

Wow, so much animosity in this thread.

In accordance with my world view, I am not concerned with environmental impacts whatsoever. And even if I was remotely inclined to care, I would assert the process of creating batteries, operating (fueling) batteries, and disposing of the batteries is more harmful to the environment that burning fossil fuels.

For me, I've learned to not say never. However, if I have the option between now and when I reach my end of days on this planet, I will continue to only purchase fully gas/diesel powered vehicles of the non-hybrid variety.

Additionally, when I am financially set enough, I will acquire a pre-OBD vehicle which will continue to operate even in an EMP war. I'll bring Mad Max (movie) to life.....and rule the world while the EV crowd is stranded helpless, lol!

 

[Helo58]

And even if I was remotely inclined to care, I would assert the process of creating batteries, operating (fueling) batteries, and disposing of the batteries is more harmful to the environment that burning fossil fuels.

You got it, the mining practices and toxicity from the "rare earth metals" alone is enough to swing the needle in the direction of the ICE at this point.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Wow, so much animosity in this thread.

I don't see it that way. Just strong, differing opinions.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Wow, so much animosity in this thread.

In accordance with my world view, I am not concerned with environmental impacts whatsoever. And even if I was remotely inclined to care, I would assert the process of creating batteries, operating (fueling) batteries, and disposing of the batteries is more harmful to the environment that burning fossil fuels.

For me, I've learned to not say never. However, if I have the option between now and when I reach my end of days on this planet, I will continue to only purchase fully gas/diesel powered vehicles of the non-hybrid variety.

Additionally, when I am financially set enough, I will acquire a pre-OBD vehicle which will continue to operate even in an EMP war. I'll bring Mad Max (movie) to life.....and rule the world while the EV crowd is stranded helpless, lol!

There are more than a few of "us".

Fossil fuels account for a puny percentage of total co2 in the atmosphere. The "trouble" is that co2 doesn't dissipate quickly like water vapor; thus it accumulates over time. Big, freaking, deal! The last I heard before this flap, we were threatened with the end of this ice age dovetailing with the arrival the next ice age. Now we are told that warming "too fast" is threatening life on the planet: we are told that evolution needs more time to let life adapt to the rapid warming.

Bullshyster. Nobody KNOWS any such thing; it is a theory, even a hypothesis; there is absolutely no proof that the planet is in trouble because we are warming rapidly (which I doubt anyway, but my doubt won't change a thing). While some species are stressed and hit hard by warming (loss of ice), others are thriving and appearing in larger numbers than ever seen before (e.g. humpback whales around the Antarctic). In short, "... we don't know what is going on." (Full quote by a penguin biologist studying her speciality in the midst of diminishing sea ice and glaciers, in the Nat Geo: "We should be bothered, that we don't know what is going on.")

Yet "They" tell us endlessly that we need to curb/eliminate our fossil fuel "dependency". We have civil rights-violating protests in London because the Gov't isn't doing its job of ending carbon subsidies and adding on carbon taxes: meanwhile in Paris we have angry mobs breaking things and fighting with the police because the Gov't announced a carbon tax. Gov'ts can't win! I hope to hell NOT. They should take this latest contrast home and think long and hard upon the ramifications.

Any "fixes" for climate change are nothing but humans making power/money grabs in the guise of "doing something" because the "sky is falling". Nothing more or less than that. And therefore, harmful to our collective world economy. The world needs more fossil fuel development, not less, not cutting back: the developing nations need to be developed to the same level of material prosperity and individual freedom enjoyed by most of the West.

Capitalism is the engine; growth for the foreseeable future is the special ingredient.

And nations meeting to work out a representative world Gov't patterned on the US model will get everyone lined up and cooperating. Paradise is within our reach! (Oh, and while working out the World representative democracy, we need to agree to get rid of our nuke stockpiles: if we don't do that above all else, we are cooked in the near, not distant, future.)

 

[CaliSting]

Some of us have zero interest in hybrids and electric cars. And, calisting, I cannot see driverless cars being a big thing in the next 5-8 years ... there are simply too many hurdles that AI cannot clear for them to become mainstream in the near term. Maybe in limited usage - like airport shuttles - in highly-controlled areas, but not on the highways and byways of America.

The good ol' internal combustion engine is doing fine, thank you, and it has become so clean that the environmental argument for hybrids and electrics has lost its impetus. The whole electric-assisted thing has shifted to performance rather than emissions.

Looking long term, I think electrics and hybrids are just a stepping stone to a future tech or fuel that will eventually power our cars, trucks and buses.

The industry as a whole and markets in general are voting against you. I have visibility to enabling technologies and can tell you all big companies are embracing this direction to electric and autonomous capabilities. They are investing billions and corporations usually don't make bets like this unless they are confident on returns. Can see laser mapping companies on roads all over SF Bay Area making high definition mapping data to enable autonomous cars right now. 5G is starting to roll out - the other AI enabling technology. Logic and memory chips coming out that will enable AI are cheaper and cheaper. Sensors to enable AI that used to be thousands of dollars are in low hundreds now. I have sat in industry conferences and while there is a lot of hype there is a huge jump in technologies we have seen just in past 3 years. And huge R&D dollars still pouring into AI, batteries and sensors. I have enough visibility to see huge change coming. I say this as a devout combustion engine gearhead who would rather drive an old air cooled triple webber carb Porsche than an Electric any day but people like me are a small voice in global economies.

When a company like Porsche announces intent to make almost all cars hybrids or electric it says something. GM is dumping most of old tech in favor of electrics. I mentioned Porsches electric already has 20000 reservations and they are trying to up production to 30000 with intro next year. Hell new 992 911's are already designed to take hybrid electric motor inline with transmission in next couple years. Porsche will make hybrids and electrics that aren't only fun to drive but are some of fastest and efficient vehicles around. Other companies are on same path. Audi launches E tron soon.

Infrastructure for eclectic cars and battery tech is advancing by huge leaps. Its not going to be unconceivable of range of 500 miles and quick charges of minutes giving hundreds of miles. Porsche Taycan isn't a boring slow car. The arguments I hear about internal combustion motors not going away remind me of when PC companies said mobile was cute but would never replace desktops.

Can say a 300 mile range $75K Porsche Electric would get my attention. Heck an electric pick up truck that could tow would be a contender for my money. I almost bought a Tesla X but the 5000 lb tow capacity was still a bit under what I wanted and range wasn't quite there. Next year there should be some options.

 

[CaliSting]

What a list of non sequiturs. How long did it take you to come up with all of that?

Electric cars are CRAP at convenience and utility. They cause warm fuzzies (I'm DOING SOMETHING to save the planet) and nods of approval from politically correct snobs who are into groupthink. There is not one thing about electric cars, at this time, that recommends itself to ICE proponents/fans.

Electric is BORING
Is lacking in practicality (range)
Is inefficient use of time (must, re, charge ...)
Is added cost for no return (time is money)
Is arguably at least as wasteful (battery disposal)
Is no solution to what causes climate change
Is not any more reliable than ICE (look at Tesla)
Is not cheaper!

As it stands, if you are getting electric or hybrid to increase your "gas mileage" you are going about this the wrong way: just get a more efficient ICE. There are plenty of them. The Stinger isn't for you.

I think electrics and hybrids have gone far from the arguments offered by granola eating crowd of a decade ago. Youre sort of stuck in old paradigm some of the kooky environmentalists gave back in early era of these technologies. Now new gen isn't focused solely on saving planet they are true performance focused technologies. Electric gives car companies a lot more flexibility with design too. Porsche has been racing hybrids of almost a decade now. Porsche designing very low center of gravity into its Taycan. People I have talked to who have driven them say its a blast. Tesla model 3's showing up to track days on coilovers and sticky tires. All practicality arguments are going away with new technologies. In fact some may say needing to go to gas station is sort of a drag compared to convenience of charging at work or home or at grocery store or wherever you go. Super quick charger technology showing up everywhere now too. All companies making electrics investing in charging infrastructure too.

Nope stand alone petrol motors are going to lose huge market share next year and even more in near future to electrics and hybrids. and many of cars wont be boring. Its already happening guys regardless of our opinions.

 

[SEA Stinger]

What a list of non sequiturs. How long did it take you to come up with all of that?
.
.
.
The Stinger isn't for you.

Seriously, are you trying to tell me that the Stinger is not for me?

I willingly bought my Stinger 11 months ago and am very happy to have it. This is my "Murica" too, where consumers still have some freedom of choice. Too bad if this bugs you, but my Stinger actually is the right car for me - at this point in time.

If you want to stay a "pure" consumer of fossil fuels, have at it. I will be making my own choices too, as will other consumers. If/when a partially or fully electrified Stinger becomes available at a reasonable cost, I will seriously consider buying it. I'll also consider the other alternatives that are available at that point in time. That's how capitalism works - competition and innovation drive new products to become available in the market, and consumers get to choose which ones they buy.

Personally, I think Elon Musk is a goofball and more of a visionary/innovator than sound businessperson. Wouldn't surprise me if Tesla eventually fades away, but even if it does, it will have played a useful role in transforming the automobile industry.

Going forward, it's encouraging to see other more mainstream auto companies finally picking up the mantle and moving forward to make PHEVs and EVs more technologically and commercially viable. Props to Volvo for coming out with exciting new models at reasonable prices. The OP deserves our thanks for sharing that information.

It will be interesting to see how competition drives PHEV and EV technologies forward, including increasing range, addressing mining/processing/disposal issues around batteries, providing safety (e.g., dealing with absence of engine sound), and reducing costs/market prices for the new, more advanced vehicles. Most likely, those will turn out to be surmountable hurdles, not impenetrable barriers to progress.

 

[Helo58]

To be fair, nobody is crooning for EVs. Any change in the auto industry these days is driven purely by "legislation" and test standards. Companies have to find more and more creative ways to meet the corporate average fuel economy standards. Electric and hydrogen were embraced by the automakers because of their ability to do this and also the huge subsidies given to them by governments worldwide. A good example is Ford dropping all of their sedans. This is due in part to people flocking to SUVs but also lower CAFE standards for SUVs and trucks. If subsidies for "green" technology and CAFE requirements changed tomorrow, so would the auto market.

As far as autonomous cars, they are a decade or more away. Legacy vehicles, a litigious society, and a current lack of standardization will be the biggest hurdles.

 

[westcoastGT]

Huge challenge for acceptable margins producing E vehicles for automakers (without govt subsidies )

 

[Jimmer]

To be fair, nobody is crooning for EVs. Any change in the auto industry these days is driven purely by "legislation" and test standards. Companies have to find more and more creative ways to meet the corporate average fuel economy standards. Electric and hydrogen were embraced by the automakers because of their ability to do this and also the huge subsidies given to them by governments worldwide. A good example is Ford dropping all of their sedans. This is due in part to people flocking to SUVs but also lower CAFE standards for SUVs and trucks. If subsidies for "green" technology and CAFE requirements changed tomorrow, so would the auto market.

As far as autonomous cars, they are a decade or more away. Legacy vehicles, a litigious society, and a current lack of standardization will be the biggest hurdles.

I would never want an autonomous car. I love driving.

 

[CaliSting]

To be fair, nobody is crooning for EVs. Any change in the auto industry these days is driven purely by "legislation" and test standards. Companies have to find more and more creative ways to meet the corporate average fuel economy standards. Electric and hydrogen were embraced by the automakers because of their ability to do this and also the huge subsidies given to them by governments worldwide. A good example is Ford dropping all of their sedans. This is due in part to people flocking to SUVs but also lower CAFE standards for SUVs and trucks. If subsidies for "green" technology and CAFE requirements changed tomorrow, so would the auto market.

As far as autonomous cars, they are a decade or more away. Legacy vehicles, a litigious society, and a current lack of standardization will be the biggest hurdles.

Couple things. We already have couple classes of autonomous cars on roads. Option on Tesla. Even Stinger has some autonomous features But fully driverless cars are not far away. I’d also argue people love electrics . Tesla rivals many cars. New Porsche is a hit and isn’t even available yet. No regulations selling those cars.

 

[Helo58]

Couple things. We already have couple classes of autonomous cars on roads. Option on Tesla. Even Stinger has some autonomous features But fully driverless cars are not far away. I’d also argue people love electrics . Tesla rivals many cars. New Porsche is a hit and isn’t even available yet. No regulations selling those cars.

The classes on the road now don't exceed level 3. I am unaware of any SAE Level 5 (fully autonomous) cars that will be on the road within the next decade. Lots of people say they will have the technology, but that is likely for raising capital and generating interest. Personally, I am not holding my breath for a Level 5 car anytime soon.

As for electric cars, no one is saying that a compelling electric can't be made. With the right money and time, I am sure that you could make a compelling car that ran on human hair and nail trimmings. I merely contend that electric cars are a "solution" in need of a problem. Currently (no pun intended) the energy density or charging rates in batteries doesn't justify the change. That is an area that is rapidly changing but only as long as the "free money" keeps pouring in. The legislative push, fueled by financial incentives for consumers and manufacturers, for renewables and non-carbon fuels is what is driving the current trend of electrification, not consumer demand. As car makers see no end to this legislation then they have to find ways to make people buy electric cars or go out of business.