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Subs not used for audio in 2022?

So I’ve read through a good chunk of threads on here but can’t seem to come to a conclusion. If you guys put your hand on one of the subs when a song with a lot of bass is playing, do you feel it? It seems like ALL of the bass comes from the door woofers in my car. I was expecting BMW amounts of bass to come from the subs, like my 335 had with the HK system. I know someone has said theirs was out of phase, so it could be that, I suppose.
 

5tinger

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The audio source seems to have quite an influence on the sound quality. Spotify sounds crap but when i use the Samsung music app the sound is quite nice and punchy.
 

washere

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Also coming from an E93 to a 22 GT2, I have the exact same feeling. turning up the bass didn't seem to do much.
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The audio source seems to have quite an influence on the sound quality. Spotify sounds crap but when i use the Samsung music app the sound is quite nice and punchy.
From why I can tell, source doesn’t make a difference for this crude test. I’ve tried them all. To include the new Apple Music Dolby Atmos songs.
Also coming from an E93 to a 22 GT2, I have the exact same feeling. turning up the bass didn't seem to do much.
So, if you put your hand on the sub grill, do you feel any bass output? Seems odd they’d go through the engineering efforts of putting subs there if they aren’t going to provide any meaningful output. Im actually coming directly from a TourX, which had tremendous bass output from the Bose system. I had MUCH higher hopes and aspirations for this HK system.
 

Aarvix

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Get an app that can output tones at a certain frequency (I use frequency generator).

Connect your phone to the car via bluetooth (and select the correct audio input).

Place a dollar bill over the subwoofer grill.

play an 80hz tone (the bill probably won't move).
play a 30-40hz tone (the bill should move).

The subs work, but are crossed over way too low IMO.
 

MerlintheMad

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What @Aarvix said ^^^: the "dollar bill test" proves they work, and you still can't feel the grill vibrating. The whole surrounding floor is the resonator booster. The cross-over assertion I'm unclear about: the way I understand cross-over for subwoofers is that the setting determines the point at which bass signal engages the subs: any bass output higher than that setting, the bass available comes through the normal bass speakers (i.e., the doors). A ton of music I listen to has mild to even no bass output: of course, these tunes are not going to wake up any subwoofers at all. It's interesting as a comparison: my Pioneer sub in my livingroom stereo won't wake up - the blue light won't come on - unless the bass hits the setting: at "eleven o'clock" between 40 and 150 Hz. I feel that the HK subs engage at a lower Hz setting than in my livingroom stereo (Pioneer sub set at c. 85 Hz).
 
Okay, I’ll do that. Thanks for the tip! I’ve not heard of that app before. The Bose sub would bounce loose change and pens around it hit so hard haha. Looks like I’ll be putting in the little powered sub I had in my old Civic hatch, in here. Glad I saved it!
 

Aarvix

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A low-pass crossover lets the low frequencies pass through, while choking off the highs.
It's a gradual taper off, with various available slopes (expressed as dp per octave). A steeper slope chokes off the highs faster.
These subs can easily play to 80-100hz, but HK has chosen to play these frequencies with the door woofers.

the Stinger subs are approximately 7" diameter, installed in a small plastic enclosure. There's a slot in the enclosure that vents to the outboard sill, allowing the volume of the sill to act as the speaker box (not a great box, since it's not airtight).

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RogueIV

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A low-pass crossover lets the low frequencies pass through, while choking off the highs.
It's a gradual taper off, with various available slopes (expressed as dp per octave). A steeper slope chokes off the highs faster.
These subs can easily play to 80-100hz, but HK has chosen to play these frequencies with the door woofers.

the Stinger subs are approximately 7" diameter, installed in a small plastic enclosure. There's a slot in the enclosure that vents to the outboard sill, allowing the volume of the sill to act as the speaker box (not a great box, since it's not airtight).

That's an interesting design choice
 

Aarvix

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It's quite common for OEMs these days, BMW has been doing it for a while.

I was hoping our subs were 8" so I could swap in some of the common BMW sub upgrades but, alas, they're a non-standard size.

They do wake up a lot if you give them a dedicated amp, even more if you use a LOC with signal summing and set the crossover to 80hz.
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A low-pass crossover lets the low frequencies pass through, while choking off the highs.
It's a gradual taper off, with various available slopes (expressed as dp per octave). A steeper slope chokes off the highs faster.
These subs can easily play to 80-100hz, but HK has chosen to play these frequencies with the door woofers.

the Stinger subs are approximately 7" diameter, installed in a small plastic enclosure. There's a slot in the enclosure that vents to the outboard sill, allowing the volume of the sill to act as the speaker box (not a great box, since it's not airtight).

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Did you have to do a tear down to this level to gain access to them? Or were you putting in sound mats or something? Seems odd that they did this kind of setup. Must be the excursion limitations, on why the limited frequencies were chosen. The HK system in a prior Subaru was similar, in that the sent 90% of the bass to the 6x9 door woofers and on;y select frequencies to the sub.
 

Aarvix

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Nah, you can get to them by just pulling the seat and a few trim pieces.

Those pics were taken when I gutted the interior to cover the whole floor in MLV (WIP pic). Didn't make much difference, the doors, trunk and wheelwell we're much more effective (and less work).
Sound blockers are only effective if you get near 100% coverage and the stinger floorpan is just too busy for that, lots of seams let noise through.
 

byebyeSTI

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Nah, you can get to them by just pulling the seat and a few trim pieces.

Those pics were taken when I gutted the interior to cover the whole floor in MLV (WIP pic). Didn't make much difference, the doors, trunk and wheelwell we're much more effective (and less work).
Sound blockers are only effective if you get near 100% coverage and the stinger floorpan is just too busy for that, lots of seams let noise through.
im in process of doing a complete system revamp in mine now , what did you end up doing in total to yours ? i have a complete build log on Diyma
 

Aarvix

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Been meaning to start a build log, just too busy/lazy.
It's nearly complete (minus tune) but needs some wiring cleanup at the amps.

Front doors: Audiofrog GS10, GS25, stock midbass
Rear doors: stock
Center: Audiofrog GB40, GB10
Subwoofer: Audiofrog GB10D4
(may replace the 6.5's eventually)

All channels run active, may put a passive crossover on the rear door mid/high pair.

amps: Helix V12 and Toro MR2 (sub)
 
Been meaning to start a build log, just too busy/lazy.
It's nearly complete (minus tune) but needs some wiring cleanup at the amps.

Front doors: Audiofrog GS10, GS25, stock midbass
Rear doors: stock
Center: Audiofrog GB40, GB10
Subwoofer: Audiofrog GB10D4
(may replace the 6.5's eventually)

All channels run active, may put a passive crossover on the rear door mid/high pair.

amps: Helix V12 and Toro MR2 (sub)
I bet that sounds good!
 

stoopid

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Thinking of their crossover strategy in a slightly different way...

If the subs only have to focus on what they're good at, non-directional lowest frequency tones and vibration (feel), then the wattage being sent to them will be most efficiently used. At the same time, the door speakers which face into the cabin and are expected to produce the majority of audible tones are used for the upper low frequencies and mids (tweeter for the highest, although the lower front and rear door speakers also produce most of those higher frequencies which is IMO a big flaw in the sound signature). This allows the subs and door speakers to best utilize the power provided them.

Home theater systems are generally setup the same way, with the sub only doing the work of producing the lowest frequencies the remaining speakers cannot.

You also do not want overlap between speaker types, the sub should not produce any of the same frequencies the door speakers are producing. A hard set crossover (very sharp curve) is always best on the sub. Home theater receivers will usually have a setting to limit what frequencies are even being sent to the sub and main speakers, I think with my small satellite speakers the receiver starts sending a signal at 100hz and the sub gets everything below (20-99.99hz). From what I understand, this is textbook sub configuration 101. But I'm not formally schooled so I'm open to other ideas if there's science to back the methodology.

At what frequency to cutoff is usually determined by the main speakers, you don't want the sub producing higher frequencies because they do so poorly and that's utilizing power that should/could otherwise be spent producing the lower frequencies it's good at producing. Positioning of the sub also matters, if it produces higher frequencies you'll need to have it positioned in a way the listener will hear those frequencies coming at them without it being distracting. In my home theater setup, my sub sits fairly close to front and center because it produces some of the audible bass. If it was way off to either side, those audible frequencies would emanate from that off center location and seem out of place. This is also why the subs under the seats are not being asked to produce any of the audible bass frequencies - they're under the seats/out of direct contact with our ears.
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Aarvix

Stinger Enthusiast
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I'm sure Harmon knew what they were doing, but an engineer's worst enemy is the budget.

They did their best under whatever budget and power constraints they were given (and it's a good system). That said, with more money and more power, improvements are possible.
The stock subs really wake up with a dedicated amp, even moreso if you sum in the door woofer and bump the crossover up a bit (to 70-80hz).

Jeff Hulburt has a great video on Youtube going over this.
 

shoengine

Active Member
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Been meaning to start a build log, just too busy/lazy.
It's nearly complete (minus tune) but needs some wiring cleanup at the amps.

Front doors: Audiofrog GS10, GS25, stock midbass
Rear doors: stock
Center: Audiofrog GB40, GB10
Subwoofer: Audiofrog GB10D4
(may replace the 6.5's eventually)

All channels run active, may put a passive crossover on the rear door mid/high pair.

amps: Helix V12 and Toro MR2 (sub)
Where'd you place the amps?
 

byebyeSTI

Newish Member
11
4
3
Been meaning to start a build log, just too busy/lazy.
It's nearly complete (minus tune) but needs some wiring cleanup at the amps.

Front doors: Audiofrog GS10, GS25, stock midbass
Rear doors: stock
Center: Audiofrog GB40, GB10
Subwoofer: Audiofrog GB10D4
(may replace the 6.5's eventually)

All channels run active, may put a passive crossover on the rear door mid/high pair.

amps: Helix V12 and Toro MR2 (sub)
nice stuff for sure ,,

this is my set up for now ..lol

audible physics ram 2 in pods on a pillars
audiofrog gb 60 in front doors
rear doors stock drivers for fill
under seat subs ,gladen for bmw drop ins
audiofrog gb10 sub

mini dsp 8x12 dl dsp

mosconi class a -for ram 2 inch
mosconi as 200.4 . front MB and sub
mosconi as 100.4 for under seat and rear fill
 
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